What do people think? Should high school kids be allowed to wrestle in kids states? Is there an unfair advantage to some kid that has been wrestling 5 days a week and coached by a paid coach vs. a kid that wresltes 2-3 times a week coached by a volunteer?

First, who would this affect other than first year 14 and unders? (Usually a 13 yo 8th grader)

14, 15, 16 yo kids ARE in H.S., and if they're not good enough to at least make their H.S. JV team, what chance do they have at state anyway?

And the Freshman handing out whoopin's in the 14 and unders got theirs the year before...

I think it's fine. In the vast majority of cases, the only time you will run into this is in 14&U, where freshmen meet 8th graders. It is a tough year for the 8th graders, who have been tearing it up all season in kids and then meet up with the freshmen, many of whom have been wrestling sophs, jrs and srs, but it is also an induction for them into what they will run across as freshmen themselves next year. I think it kind of helps to get rid of some jitters about wrestling high schoolers.

By this age, almost any 8th grader who stands a chance to qualify for state is a fairly serious wrestler who plans to compete in high school, and while their odds are slimmer of becoming a state champ at 14&U, that's more true than not in the first year of any age group.

Also, for the freshmen and older kids in 16&U, it gives them a chance for some "grudge matches" with competitors who wrestle for high schools of different sizes. Maybe the 4A State Champ will get to wrestle the 6A State Champ, if their ages happen to fall in the right cutoffs. By the time you get to 16&U, with a few rare exceptions of possibly kids who were held back a year, they're basically all high schoolers anyway. For those who want more mat time and competition, more power to them!

Edited: I guess we agree, Bulldogdad, but apparently we were posting at the same time!

I noticed in the Minutes from our USAW Kansas Kids Wrestling State Body Meeting on 11/3/2002 that the KWCA (Kansas Wrestling Coaches Assn.) requested to Mike Juby that we consider shortening our season so that it would end before the High School State Meets. They wanted their high school wrestlers to have a two week break after their season end and then start Freestyle and Greco-Roman. Evidently the KWCA would rather not have the high school wrestlers participate in the Kids year end tournament series. I believe that Missouri does not have high school kids in their year end tournaments.

I agree with Bulldog Dad and KCWrestlersMom from the competition side that there are probably some benefits for the 8th graders to be wrestling the more experienced 9th grade kids and that it probably does help prepare them for high school.

What I see as the main problem is that the high school participation contributes to a logistics problem at the State Meet in Topeka. If we had fewer participants at Topeka for the State meet, the kids could probably enjoy bigger mats and less wait between matches.

Ideally, the best solution in my opinion would be a Grand State Meet for High School wrestlers after all the different classes had their State finals. Any freshman who did not qualify for the Grand State could come to Kids and wrestle 14 & under. There would be no need for 16 & under in this scenario at Kids State. If some of the freshmen were going to the High School Grand State instead of Kids than that would help make the 8th graders more competitive at Kids State.

I have a 14&under 7th grader with an August birthday (who could pass for a 5th grader) who is going to be wrestling HS freshmen this Sat. at subs. Hardly seems fair. I would be for something like Missouri where you enter your age at the time of the tourney. I know when Mo. kids come over here they usually have to bump up an age class. We had several entries at our Novice that had entered in the wrong age group and numerous calls and emails from parents wanting to know which age their kid would be at "over here". But we go into each tourney knowing that and it rarely dampens our spirit. I also have a 7th grade nephew with a similar "birthday problem" and he is gong to see some HS guys this Sat. But if they aren't scared of him now, they will be after Subs. Ha Ha!

Maybe you should contact KSHAA and ask if they can change it in the High school ranks too, so that a freshman, does'nt wrestle seniors, Seems even more unfair that a 14 year old boy has to wrestle a 19 year old young man, that some of these freshman are walking out wrestling an athlete who shaves everyday. life is not always fair but thats how it works out take your lumps now then give them in a few years.

I hate to open a new topic about it, if you are going to take the 16 and under out then a 6 and under would be added, I would say. I dont have any problem with a high school kid coming out, and yes some of my kids will be wrestling high schoolers but you know what they will deal with it.

The only solution to the problem seems to be, not allowing High School wrestlers to participate in the kids state tournament, that apparently would make every parent happy. I on the other had am a high school wrestler, and in my eight grade year I won the 14 and under bracket at state facing freshman. It doesn't matter how old you are, its how much heart, determination, and skill you have. Most of us High School wrestlers come from kids, and alot of those kids look to us for inspirtaion as an older kid who will take the time to work with them and talk to them. I know I did. Maybe you guys should just not worry about who is wrestling and just let your kids wrestle. That is the only way you can get better, by wrestling the best.

Thanks, Michael! Everyone is always saying this is about the kids, and maybe we need more voices from the high school wrestlers to speak up with their view. I look forward to my son being able to come back to kids after the high school season is over, and you're right, the younger kids love to see their former teammates who are now the "big guys" wrestle.

When kids move up in the age classes, there is always the chance that they will have to go up against someone that is quite a bit older than them. My son is the 13 year old that Coach Packard talked about earlier. We have wrestled all season against boys that are much more developed, and look much older than my son. We could have pulled him out because of the difference in size or age, but being low man on the totem pole is just one of the things you have to put up with in wrestling. Is is fair that as a 7th grader, he will have to wrestle high school kids this weekend? Probably not, but he has learned valuable lessons that he would not have learned anywhere else. Going from placing every weekend to only placing 3 times in a season is very character building (I hope anyway). The discussion is good and through it maybe someone can come up with a better solution to the system than the one we have now. I am grateful that we have such a great forum for this kind of discussion.

That would not be fair because, for some reasons. I was a freshman in high school and I made vanisty team. I got my tail handed to me alot of times. But I beat couple of seniors and juniors. I hated last year, when I wrestled a freshman I got beat. I got alot of exp. in high school just from wrestling harder matchs. It seems like I am junior high now becuase, the kids look so young to me in my age group. I bascially laugh when I went out. In the Classic's. I took 1st in 14 and under. I was more stronger and better because, I got better from weight lifting and wrestled older kids. Why would you want to drop 16 and under? It seems pretty good to me. Because, I know I can wrestle until I am 17, in kids. Im going to miss kids wrestling, when I it is all over. Well think, if your son or daugher is in high school. Get them in a weight lifting class and on the high school wrestling team. So they can better. I just want to wrestle more because, in the next 4years. It is all going to be over.

I have had some e-mail correspondence with jrob1982 and KCWrestlersMom since I have posted my original response to this topic. They are starting to make me budge from my position on 16 & unders at Kids State. I am also very impressed that Steinmetz171 who I know is a very accomplished high school wrestler still has the strong desire to compete at Kids State after his high school season. Obviously from some of the other posts several more of you older high school wrestlers also want to still compete. It is good that you have that desire and opportunity. I wish you all good luck this year at Kids State. I am sure that the younger wrestlers like my son do pick up a lot from watching you older wrestlers both at practice and at the State tournaments this time of the year. I find it very inspiring that a young man like jrob1982 is willing to devote so much of his time and energy to youth wrestling. Obviously something is really working with our current system.

Vince,
Of course that isn't really what the original poster asked. The question was should "high school" kids be allowed to wrestle kids? Since the question was asked I assume that it really centered on the 14 and under age group. At least that's the direction that the responses took.
While a few 16 and unders do participate in kids alot more sign up and never show. Take a look at the scratches at subs in the 16yr age division as compared to the others. I feel eliminating the 16 and under in kids would push more kids towards freestyle and give them a well needed break in between. I would rather see those kids that were suited to it, be allowed to coach kids club members in the interim. But it would need to be well regulated.

sportsfan02, I would have liked to sent you an e-mail on this because I think everyone has read enough of my views. Another reason I am beginning to change on my thinking a little bit besides the things I mentioned in my second post above was that I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that way about 16 & under at Kids State. I mentioned the possibility in a topic last year also and before your post no one else has ever posted any supporting comments to the suggestion. Except maybe the KWCA feels that way too after reading the November 2002 minutes.

I got to admit most of my personal motivation comes from desiring a bigger mats at State for the younger kids and for shorter waits between matches at State for all the wrestlers and the spectators (I know that part is selfish. I am guilty).

Vince,
There is nothing wrong with shortening tournaments for the sake of kids and parents alike. That's not selfish it makes good sense. The presentation that was made at the state body meeting really centered on the KWCA feeling the current kids season is too long. I concur with the coaches on that. In addition I would like the opportunity for the kids wrestlers to attend high school state to see the reason for all their hard work. In district II we used to have a self imposed moratoriam on kids tournaments the weekend of high school state. As the years have gone by that agreement has been forgotten. However, there is no way to shorten the season from the back as none of us can get into our gyms for subs and districts during the month of February. I don't think the KSHAA announces the sites of hs regionals for bb and wrestling till November. By this time our sub and district sites are already decided and well on the way to being planned.

I won't address the length of season issue, but as far as kids attending the High School State tournament (4A, 5A, 6A), we have for the last three years attended the Maize tournament. It is well-run, and done in a split format, which should make many happy. The 6, 12 and 14&Us wrestle in the morning and are done by 12:30. I like the way it is split, because it is primarily the 12 & 14s that are more intersted in high school state. We then go over to the Coliseum to watch HS State. If we're lucky enough to get a day off, we go down Friday and watch the HS matches as well. We have all enjoyed this very much in the past, and I would recommend it to anyone. Maybe a club near Hays could or does do the same thing. My son doesn't want a week off so close to the qualifying tournaments, and this lets him have his cake and eat it, too.

Yes high school kids shoudl be allowed to compete. I think the main arguement is it is not fair for the kids in the 14 & U and 16 & u division to have to wrestle kids that are in high school and can still wrestle in these age group. The bottom line is if your kid is getting beat by one of them just remember they will have the same opportunity to wrestle younger kids. I loved my days in kids wrestling and now that im a coach I encourage all of our eligible high school wrestlers to come out becuase it not only gives them experiance but becuase it is fun.

Their should be a 16 and under bracket i believe because it gives kids a chance to compete with kids from all size schools. Sometimes kids state can be harder than high school state just depending on if the younger wrestlers were more dominant in that year. I wouldn't be apposed also to a 18 and under bracket. Because that would give seniors and freshmen in college a chance to have one more chance to redeem themselves from any regrets they might have had in their last high school season.

lucky2,

I hope you are just joking. There has to be some limitations. We have limited resources. Why not a 20 & under and a 22 & under then? Maybe even a Masters Division too? For that matter why not have Kids Division wrestle at the High School State? To me the point is that we can't do everything due to limitations. There is just not the space or time to cram that all into a two day weekend tournament in a reasonable manner. One that will allow big enough mats for the young kids at their State tournament and so they won't have to wait so long between matches. It just seems like we try to do too much sometimes. What is wrong with the Kids having their own State tournament?

To me what you are seeking is again the Grand State High School Meet. If that would ever happen it should be separate from Kids run by the State High Wrestling Association. I guess that is the KWCA.

Yes, I think high school kids should be allowed to wrestle kids wrestling when they are finished with their season. We've already discussed participation during the season. If a freshman has a good upperclassman in varsity they won't get much mat time until they drop back to kids.
Missouri wrestlers have to make a choice between high school wrestling and kids wrestling, they can't do both. We are looking forward to a couple of freshman, maybe get some payback for the earlier years. It is also nice to have them in practice helping with the younger wrestlers, hopfully setting good examples and showing good work ethic. Dan