How to stop Novice Medal Hunters.

I would like to see someone in the state body create a rule that will end the “What is a Novice” and “Why can't we have six year olds at the state tournament” debates. I think I have an idea that will stop one of the issues once and for all.

How many of you would agree to this:

Wrestlers must declare by Jan 1 Novice or Open status. Once declared, no wrestler can move up or down in status. Open tournaments will still allow wrestlers to be ranked A – D for bracketing/seeding purposes.

This will either eliminate discussion of adding six year olds to the state tournament because they will have to choose novice or open status. If they chose novice, they will lose their eligibility to compete in a state tournament. Of if given the option of state tournament or novice status, most coaches will opt for open status because they realize that six year olds are really all novices so they aren't hurting anything by feeding the kid to the sharks because the sharks are in fact other beginning wrestlers. If the wrestler opts for open status, then there will be no reason for anyone to complain because they opted for the open status.

I do have reservations about calling a six year old an advanced wrestler when he or she can't spell "advanced' and still takes naps. Then again, that's just my opinion.

Lastly, an attempt to discredit me through what I have understood to be perfectly legal of a JV wrestler wrestling for the club after his JV season was finished by an official that: 1) doesn't understand the rules that he is supposedly enforcing , 2) does not have the decency to approach me or a Tornado representative on a one to one basis, but instead puts it on the web for everyone to see, and 3) puts my name on the internet while hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name further illustrates a need for a message board rule requiring names of posters to be disclosed on the post.

Of course I understand that it would be mission impossible to impose such a rule, but hiding behind a screen name is cowardice. We should all strive to set good examples for kids as coaches and officials. I have no qualms in stating if I was in the right or the wrong and I have no problems putting name on something that I have written. I think you will find there are many people that agree or disagree with me on a multitude of issues, but the respect the fact that I am a stand up guy.

Jeremy Gibson

Hey Jeremy, I actually agree with most everything you stated and think that the rules suggestion could work on both areas, I will have to think on it more though and look forward to the debate on the issue. I will say that on the personal comments that Richard Sayler is one that has said things about me in the past, but I actually respect Richard for the work he does for the forums and actually find myself agreeing with him more than not, although that is not always the case. I especially appreciate his willingness to own up to his comments. It is the comments where people hide behind a screen name that creates issues at times.

Now to the one area I have some issues with regarding your above comments.

You seem to assume that just because someone takes a nap that they are not advanced or mature. I want you to know that I personally take insult at that comment in that I frequently take naps, especially on Sunday Afternoons. I'll just have to say that you and I will have to have a serious face to face about this blatant insult. I am just glad that you didn't talk about holding on to the Teddy Bears because I would have been really about that.

Mike,

That was one of the funniest posts I have read. Thanks for making me smile. If you'll excuse me, I have to get a rag to clean the coffee off my computer.

Coach,
I think you mistook my post as a personal attack i am by no means trying to do that. From what i understand you are an intelligent young man, a good coach and dedicated to the sport. The rub for me lies in the fact that the young man in question was "in season" as far as i knew. I had just worked a match where he wrestled not JV but Varsity. The young man in question informed me he was still practicing with his team, he had a rough season and was looking to get some mat time in at kids, perfectly acceptable in my book, let the kid wrestle and get some success and confidence back. I too am the father of a first year high schooler wrestling varsity, so i know how tough that transition can be.
Mr. Salyer has clarified the rule for me, and if he was "done" with his season there was no problem with the activities association.

Regarding the novice debate, with no set rule, frankly who cares. The only reason i do not post my name is at the request of my high school age son. Anyone who wants to send me a private email and i will gladly tell you who i am. I am a blue collar, divorced single father of a wrestler and just trying to take part in a forum for discussion of the greatest sport. A little controversy and discussion never hurt anyone

Coach Gibson,

Good post. You came to the group with a key ingredient to dispute resolution…a solution. This issue can be debated and fixed now or we will be sitting here arguing the same vague guidelines next year at this time. I really think this could work. However, I agree that the guidelines need to be set at the district or state level. If this type of system were voted in at the district or state meeting, my club would be the first to commit to following the rule. It may be hard to track but it is definitely measurable. Eligibility would become clear-cut.

Mark Stanley
Junior Viking Wrestling

Just remember it isn't the kid that made the decision it was an adult

If you want to know how to stop novice medal hunters that is easy, quit using tournament medal formats for novice. try just arranging matches for them. A couple a day would be enough and you could actually try to match kids up with similar ability opponents.

This whole discussion started because a 6 year old kid took second at a novice tournament. Novice tournaments are for first and second year wrestlers. It sounds to me like a PARENT got mad because his kid got beat. Get over it!!! I will guarantee you that he will be beat again.I just don't understand it, the kid in question didn't even take first,He wasn't even the best wrestler at a Novice tournament.Why make a bunch of rules that are going to be impossible to enforce?If a kid is a first or second year wrestler they should be able to wrestle at any novice tournament they want.If they want to wrestle both novice and open so what.Let's just let the kids have fun and learn the sport,Most will take their lumps along the way, that's life.Get over it people it's 6 year old kids we are talking about.
Sincerely,
Tom Baughman
Pleasant Ridge Wrestling Club

Mr. Furches,

I hope you don't take a nap every Sunday afternoon. Why do I care? Because you are enrolled in my bronze clinic this Sunday afternoon.

Coach Ed

The answer to this problem is not nearly as complicated as some would make it out to be.

Simply, act responsibly. As coaches, we all know who should be wrestling in novice tournaments and who should not. We all also know the purpose of these tournaments.

At The Wichita Wrestling Club Novice Tournament, as Tournament Director, I made it very clear, to numerous individuals, that I expected the Honor System to be followed, and if I felt anyone was taking advantage of the "system" they would not be allowed to compete.

This is for the kids, and the future of the sport lies with these youngsters.

Coach Ed,

I fail to see what taking a nap on a Sunday afternoon has to do with taking a Bronze Clinic Class, especially since it is at a local police-training center. I mean, after all, have you seen me lately. I believe that from my appearance it should be obvious that the last place I would desire to be is anyplace near the police. Especially those not trained to the fullest capacity of appropriate restraint or appearance assessment.

In regards to the clinic, I know who the instructors for the class are and have come to understand that it will be pure torture to try and stay awake during the time there. I will have to muster up every bit of strength, confidence, and courage to attend this class. But rest assured, plans are on, and I have actually scheduled a shorter sermon on Sunday, at the delight of my congregation so I can attend class on time.

Now to Jeremy, you shouldn't be drinking coffee at 7:00 PM, especially at your computer. Now come on, you can't blame me for any damage that may have been done to your computer on that one.

In all seriousness, I think tbaugh's and Mr. Sayler’s points are well taken, this topic started "this time" over an incident that tbaugh mentions. However, the truth is, that the events that lead to the incident occur every season, frequently! It is for that reason that I believe a rule should be considered.

Simply put, it is obvious that while many clubs may enforce a self-imposed rule, many others do not or do not have the ability to. It is my belief that when guidelines and rules are in place, it helps prevent the spread of rules violations and interpretations. If this were not an on going problem, there would be no ongoing discussion.

Our club is hosting a "Kansas Novice Championship Tournament" this year. As a club, we had a great deal of discussion and finally came up with the definition of 1st year wrestlers only as being eligible for the tournament. Part of the problem is, is that there are no teeth to bite when someone finds a way to slip through the cracks after the fact. You can’t very well go back, take a medal away from a kid, to give to another who rightly deserves it, by the way, don't think parents can get into a fit, give the kid the wrong color medal and see, even if an honest mistake. I just happen to believe that when someone knows that there are consequences for breaking the rules, they are less likely to break them, I believe that in society that is called deterrence. We have already had individuals trying to get us to not use this guideline so they can enter their 2nd and in some cases 3rd year or more wrestlers. It just makes it easier for us to try and stick to a pure novice tournament which in most cases and all definitions would obviously include 1st year wrestlers.

But even here it is sometimes difficult due to the ability of the kid. For example, we have a true 1st year wrestler with our club, who is a phenom at this point. At least I would think so, he just won Liberty Nationals at 12 and Under 115. Is he a novice wrestler? He still has a ton of technique to learn but what he does know he knows and works well. He uses his basics to advance his winnings.

I guess that says something about how much one needs to know. How many different takedowns did Cael Sanderson use for example? We often tell kids to learn 2 takedowns, 2 escapes and 2 pinning combinations better than anyone else and you will be very difficult to beat if not impossible. I may be wrong, but we start our novice kids learning the basics and some will pick it up quicker than others will and I don’t believe that is any different in any good room. From a technical point, I would say the kid with our club is a novice wrestler, however, reason tells me that from the results of his tournaments he is definitely an advanced wrestler who needs to be wrestling in advanced tournaments to get better.

From a coaching perspective, it really is about helping the kid get better and Mr. Sayler is right on, on this point. For those of us who have been in the sport for some time, and especially have kids that have done well, we know how many boxes of trophies and medals are in our basement or garage that never leave the box. I will take quality mat time for my son, and wrestlers I coach, any day over a $3 medal.

In most situations the problem comes from parents, for parents new to the sport, guidelines may have to be set, especially if the clubs themselves don’t have the fortitude to control their “medal hunters.” At the very least I would hope that coaches, clubs and parents would do exactly Mr. Sayler has suggested in his last post.

Rick,
After careful consideration on this subject I think I've changed my mind and we might need new rules for novice qualifications. Our society has long since passed the days of expecting citizens to just do the right thing. In addition, common sense now has to be legislated ala seatbelt laws. I myself detested seatbelt laws when they were first implemented even though I wore my seatbelt virtually everywhere I drove. I looked at someone not wearing their seatbelt as an evolutionary method of thinning the herd.
To the point at hand, our club had 2-3 six and under kids who started out the season in the novice divisions but after a couple of tournaments it became obvious that they needed to move up. We went to the parents and told them it was open tournaments from that point forward. We didn't need a rule or a spelling test to make us do the right thing.
I think this subject brings to light a deeper and more troubling problem than the definition of novice. That being coaches who think they are enhancing their own resume by "medal hunting". Personally, I think this type of thinking is the root of most problems encountered in youth sports. But I doubt we are going to change peoples behaviors based on what we've seen in this subject thread. Much like seatbelts, some people really do need rules to do the right thing!

sportfan,

The example you provided is exactly why the rule I have suggested should be in place. With a January 1 deadline to declare yourself novice or open would eliminate any discussion on the matter.

The original post that was taken off centered around 6 year olds abusing the system, which I have clearly stated I don't agree with a six year old being labeled advanced.

But look at the grand scheme of things. The way it is right now, a novice kid can wrestle open and novice tournaments to get better, doubling his matches. An advanced kid is not afforded those opportunities. I don't see how limiting the growth of one wrestler and adding to the opportunity of another wrestler makes us better as a state.

Declaring open and novice status after a feeling out period (December)would fix this problem. Mind you, this is not a 6 and under problem. It is a recurring problem throughout the age brackets.

The "honor system" will not work in this arena. Quite simply, if I were to have followed the guidelines set forth by many tournaments, I would have been able to wrestle novice my second year of wrestling. Coincidentally, I was a state placer that year in the 14 under division.

No, a clear rule must be in place. We have speed restrictions on roads because some of us think we are driving safely at 90 mph. "Being careful" is open to interpretation. Such are the guidelines put forth by many novice tournaments. By strict definition, no rules may have been broken. By having a wrestler declare status, rules can be broken and sanctions can be imposed.

As it stands right now, the state can only sit on it's hands.

gibby

Feb. 1st I've know a lot of people and clubs that don't even get started until after Christmas.
Give them a month novice you would know ! Same option second year if you were wrong. Dan

As it has been said before on this discussion, not all wrestlers pick up on this sport the same. 1/2 way through our son's first season we chose to remove him from Novice tournaments because he was distroying everyone. Did he get beat some in Open? Of course, but he also won many and learned more than if he would have stayed in Novice, and in his second year of wrestling he became State Champion. My son was in the 10U bracket and where there is usually a big difference in a novice wrestler vs. open, I don't think there is that big of a difference in the 6U bracket. But if you have one of those wrestlers who is just killing everyone at the novice tournaments, is he/she learning anything from this situation? I don't think being on the mat for the 30 seconds it takes to pin that unskilled wrestler will teach them much.

Hey Gibby & Furches,

I agree with what you have stated but let me add a little thought if I may. Example: you're a new team with new kids how do you find out what is a novice? Call other clubs and get 20 different definitions of a novice, that really helps that director,coach or parent. The reason I am stating this is, it did happen and I proceeded to talk to the coach and he thought I was accusing him of deceiving the system. To have deterents is the only way to keep man from ruining anything he touches. Even I have to fight back all types of over whelming temptations and parents. And I am an instructor of the bronze certification. If we would just admit it. It can and does happen alot.

Coach Ed
Northwest Jr. Grizzlies
Kansas Krusaders Head Coach
Kansas Womens Co-Director
Why Wrestling Freestyle/Greco Coach

From Mrs. Coach Ed--HA HA Gibby, Ed has more titles than you!

Great exchanges on a subject that does need to be addressed (and further clarified). Being around the sport in some capacity for the past 30 years and as the head coach for the Derby novice kids for the past 4 years, I would like to offer some thoughts for consideration as well. I too would love to see Mr. Salyer's comments of "act responsibly" be embraced by those involved today. I would not have $18K in medical bills and kid done for the season (maybe longer) if that were the case. Unfortunately, we've all learned that doing business on just a handshake is dangerous these days (although I would do business that way with Mr. Furches and Coach Ed anyday). I think to make a novice determination on a kid based soley on time is unwise. I say this because of the maturity of some kids, their God given ability, the quality of their coaches, and how fast they pick-up the sport. I have two classic examples this year alone. Mr. Furches already mentioned one. A true first year kid who has been wrestling for about 4 months who we pulled out of novice after his second tournament. Sure we could play the "there's no rule game" and continue to enter him in open and novice tournaments but that would not be a responsible action. I guess for those who would enjoy watching a pitbull maul a poodle, it might be entertaining but in poor taste none-the-less. On the other hand I have a third year novice wrestle who has won (one) match this year wrestling only in novice tournaments. Athough he just hasn't quite figured out the sport yet, I've come to admire his resiliance in making it to practice every night and going to tournaments and getting blasted for three years. He seems to enjoy being around the guys, competing and just having fun. Plus, I keeping thinking about Brandon Slay when he told us he lost every single match his first year solidifying that you never know when a kid is going to break-out. I've coached some kids (of all ages)that were physically ready to make the jump, but not mentally. I've coached some that were mentally there but not physically. Also some both and some neither. My Point is you really have to get to know the kid and make the right decision. Most all of us are trying to grow our programs and retain our kids and nothing will run a kid off faster than three matches lasting a total of thirty seconds by opponents he was NOT ready to face...and shouldn't have had to. We have a few self-imposed rules that we use for novice status. They may not work for everyone (especially the medal mongers) but they work well for our club. 1). If you place in an open tournament (any open tournament) you can't wrestle novice in your second year. The only exception is if the kid placed in the open by default (i.e. went 0-3 and took fourth place in a four man round-robin). 2). We know or have a good idea that he's going to throttle all of his opponents (i.e. our first year kid that won Liberty). He won't see a novice kid again unless one swims into his waters in an open tournament.
3). If a second year kid is just getting destroyed in opens (2 & out every tournament), we might drop them down just to try and get them some confidence back (but only if we know that he won't blast his competition). Lastly, a couple of things we've thought about doing to help encourage the sharks to stay in the opens is to give out ribbons (nice ones not the cheapy kind) instead of medals, or medals that say Novice on them. Most kids wrestling opens don't want to spend Sunday competing for a novice ribbon or novice medal. However, the true novice kids...they're excited about winning anything. Our advanced head coach also gives out certain awards to kids but only if they wrestle in open tournaments. This serves as an added incentive to make that jump, which for some is a big jump. Just some long winded thoughts but I'm close to this one and just don't want to see anyone losing kids because of greed, the smell of blood, or being one medal shy of filling every wall in their trophy room. Thanks for the all the posts and the chance to share.

Coach Morrow

good job coach

Great job DJWcoach getting to the point. We all agree, I think, the honor system does not work. There needs to be rules and guidelines. Someone form a committee to poll coaches and club presidents and lets get the ball rolling and make the DJWcoach the leader. It is time that the Kansas Wrestling powers that be put an end to this debate.

Unless I'm misreading DJWcoach's post I don't see him advocating a state rule or guideline. It seems to me he is saying each club should act responsibly. Maybe I'm just not following his post. Once you open yourself up to state guidelines for invitationals you better be prepared for more than you want. Another question who is going to track all the novices and what if any punishment will be handed out for those who do not comply? Our elected officials have enough to do with running this organization and keeping up with their own clubs needs.