Please see the this topic under the Freestyle forum. State and Folkstyle nationals are the same weekend and so are SB duals and Southern Plains. This is a MAJOR problem if not fixed.

Our KS reps are working hard to get this changed, but this is a joke USA wrestling would set up a schedule like this. They are hiding behind the fact they are having a tough time scheduling around the Olympic trials. And though I understand that dilema and easter weekend, etc. Even the thought they could schedule these events like they have now though, is a joke. My only hope is I know our KS reps at the national meeting making the KS voice heard. (FYI-Missouri is in the same situation)

If this is not fixed we need a major revolt not against our people. They are doing all they can, but against USA wrestling. And I have always been a huge USA wrestling supporter.

Mike Pursel

It seems that this might be a good time to evaluate our three weekend format and explore ways to shorten it up to two. Kansas has about the longest folkstyle season of any state. Since we have sent less than 30 kids to each of the last two USA Folkstyle Nationals I don't think we carry much weight in getting the date changed.

Thinking outside of the box:

Schedule 16&U and 6&U State the weekend after high school state.

Redistrict the state to eight districts which would be more equally balanced in participation levels versus today's four district format. Then each district would have a tournament with a true second, wrestle-back, challenge format which would qualify only the top two to state. (This is how the Wisconsin State High School qualifier is setup). This would make the state tournament smaller in numbers and reduce the season by one week.

In district 2 we could easily eliminate sub-districts and go straight to one district championship tournament. We have facilities that could easily handle the numbers.

I have a different view of subs and district tournaments. At our school, most of the team started wrestling for the first time as freshmen. One way they can get more experience and mat time, is to wrestle in the Kids tournaments after the high school season. I would hate to see the qualifying tournaments eliminated.

You would still be able to wrestle tournaments after school and if one qualifying tournament was eliminated then your wrestlers would get more matches in the tournament that was retained. If you have a 16&U kid there were very few brackets that were even close to full and I would bet you would see a big increase in participation if you held an open state the weekend after high school season. If your kids didn't qualify for HS state there are numerous tournaments available for them to participate in.

Posted on themat.com by Christopher Moen (Posted: 08/22/2007 at 3:24:59 pm)

"As mention before, the 2008 ASICS USAW Folkstyle National Championships will be held at the UNI-Dome in Cedar Falls, IA. However, the date for this event has changed! The new date for this event is April 4-6, 2008.

Age-groups to be contested at this event include: Kids (Bantam, Midget, Novice, & Schoolboy), Cadets, Juniors, and Veterans (30 and over).

Please look for the event flyer for this event (and all other USAW events) to be posted within the next few months in the USA Wrestling Events section (right-side and half-way down) on the front page of TheMat.com.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact USA Wrestling at (719) 598-8181."

Great News!! The efforts of USA Wrestling to accommodate the concerns of a few of us, at least deserve a "golf clap!" Perhaps Kansas will have a few more attending in 2008!

This is great news for the 30 or so that normally go from KS. Great job to our KS reps to help get this done. Now we should set up some planning for true "team KS" so that we can be more organized and get more people excited to go.

24/7

This is terrific news!! Connor was very disappointed to hear the previous dates because he is at the School Boy age, but loved going to Southern Plains last year. He was having a really hard time trying to decide which he would go to, also had the same disappointent for state and nationals. Now he is excited to wrestle in four great events. Thank you to all involved in making Kansas heard.

Ginny Wagh

I agree that the change of date is good news. However, I beleive Cokeley is right in that the folkstyle season is too long. Unitl this is changed we will always run into problems. Will - I am too lazy to do it - but could you give us some examples of how some other states structure the freestyle, folkstyle seasons?

Barry, I think you are going to continue to see the folkstyle season get longer and longer on a national level due to it's popularity vs FR/GR. Like most things will fall back on the parents, club directors and coaches to say when enough is enough and simply abbreviate their season one way or another. My opinion might offend or frighten some but it comes down to the above mentioned parties saying, "we aren't going to go chasing every title or medal out there". All of us have the power currently to make the season as long or short as we desire.

SF2 and Barrister Disney are right!

The Kids Folkstyle season 20 years ago use to start around Christmas and conclude the last weekend in March. Then several years ago, the Kids Folkstyle Nationals were the following weekend in Topeka! (remember the first year of Folkstyle Nationals were in Kansas City on the same weekend we were in State?)

Now, in large part due to the popularity of the sport, we have Dads' talking in August, practices start in September, and competitions beginning in October!

The USAW folkstyle season ends in April. If one chooses, competitions go through July in other sanctioning bodies.

But, all of us need to make informed decisions with our wrestlers in mind! Just a few years ago, I use to able to take a break from wrestling of about 6 to 8 weeks. Now, it is 12 months a year. I'm already being contacted by clubs wanting to host a Bronze clinic!!

Frankly, I think it is a good "problem" to have. Whether it is folkstyle, freestyle or Greco; we have Kansas kids wrestling!!

From 4-years of age to Eric Akin, we have our wrestlers competing. We have several senior level athletes still competing and trying to reach the Olympic Dream!

The "chase" is part of a lot of Kansas wrestlers lives!

This is a topic that has generated heated debate and considerable angst for as long as I’ve been involved in the sport, and I’m certain that it didn’t start then. USA Wrestling is the national governing body for wrestling in the United States, which makes it an imperative that USAW puts significant efforts into the training, promotion and development of the Olympic styles of wrestling. However, USAW has also declared that they want to be The organization for wrestling in the U.S., regardless of style.

In the years that I have represented Kansas as state chairman, this has been the source of many lengthy conversations between myself and the other state chairs and USAW staff. From my perspective, I acknowledge the need to focus on the international styles of wrestling, but as the state chair for Kansas, one of the largest membership states built primarily from our folkstyle membership, I felt that my principal role at the national level has been as an advocate of folkstyle/collegiate wrestling.

The staff at USA Wrestling is similarly conflicted, albeit from the other side of the fence. Working daily with our national and world teams, they see first-hand the needs that exist for our freestyle and Greco Roman teams, particularly in developing strong grass roots programs. They recognize that there is a strong base for folkstyle wrestling in the U.S., and would like to see that fervor bleed over into the international styles. While I truly believe that they are fans and supporters of folkstyle wrestling, I also have found that they find it difficult to avoid being biased towards the styles in which we will be competing against other nations.

Nearly everyone seems to embrace the concept of supporting all the different styles of wrestling, but there is a considerable difference of opinion on when each style should have its time at the forefront. Scheduling the folkstyle nationals the first weekend in April was originally accepted as a concession to Kansas, where we offered to host the fledgling event on the condition that it would not conflict with our strong, established state tournament series. However, we were not the only state which wanted the folkstyle championships on that weekend (Missouri and New Jersey come immediately to mind as states that also support this schedule).

Nearly ten years as state chairman (plus several years as District Director and Kids Executive Director) has given me ample opportunities to consider and discuss the impact of our schedule on the development of freestyle and Greco Roman in our state, as well as how that carries over to the rest of the nation. This has become perhaps even more of a problem as the rules of freestyle and Greco Roman have deviated significantly from those of folkstyle wrestling, making it even more important that those wishing to learn the international styles have sufficient time to learn how to compete in what have become sports very different than the folkstyle wrestling they’re used to.

My personal opinion is that our folkstyle season is probably too long, both in terms of burning out some of our youth as they grind out the lengthy season, and also in how it takes away the opportunity to learn and improve techniques in freestyle and Greco Roman for those who want to continue wrestling beyond the folkstyle season. Two very different constituent groups, but both of them are being adversely impacted. The Kansas Wrestling Coaches Association has taken a similar position, requesting that our Kids organization shorten the folkstyle season.

My personal feelings aside, I will continue to aggressively support the membership in Kansas in whichever direction they wish to take. Currently, I believe that this means that I push a strong folkstyle program culminating in a state tournament ending the last weekend in March, followed by a national folkstyle championships the following weekend, even if this is done to the detriment of our freestyle and Greco Roman programs. If this is not what you want for our state, the place to change this direction is at the State Body meeting in late October. In the meantime, utilizing this forum to debate and discuss topics like this is an excellent way to fully consider all of the relevant issues.

Mike, you've done a lot of great things for this state's wrestling success and I as well as many others appreciate that. I also think though that somebody with as much experience and respect as yourself can gain a lot of following in your beliefs. I think that you can definitely gain a large following if you start pushing for certain things you think would help our state have more success.

Mike I would be curious if in your talks with USAW national officials if there is a plan to prevent the further erosion of the rules? I don't know the numbers of participants in FS/GR in other countries vs the USA but I continue to question why it appears we allow the Euros to make all the rules regarding the sport. IMO, as long as the rules continue to change so dramatically and rapidly, the sport will continue to lose both participants and fans. It seems to me that someone from the United States needs to grow a spine and say enough is enough, if you (the Euros), want to change the rules any more, we will refuse to participate.

FILA - Origins and history

Roots and history of Olympic wrestling

My wrestling background is just as a parent of a son who has wrestled folkstyle for 10 years starting in the first grade. From my perspective it seems that it is going to be very difficult to promote the Olympic styles of wrestling to the majority of our American youth wrestlers as long as high school and college wrestling is folkstyle. I think the majority of parents and the kids themselves are focused mainly on the kids becoming good high school wrestlers someday. A few might focus on wrestling in college but I don't think the drive for pursuing wrestling in college is as strong as football since the college opportunities and financial rewards are more limited in wrestling.

I think kids and parents who view it this way decide to pursue it hard during the folkstyle regular season but then decide to move on to other sports or other pursuits once the folkstyle season ends. From my perspective that is by far the majority of kids. You might get a few more going into the Olympic styles if you shorten the season but I still don't think you will get the majority as long folkstyle is the style used in high school and college.

FILA probably doesn't worry themselves too much with folkstyle wrestling. FILA's bigger concern is keeping both styles of wrestling viable to the IOC (International Olympic Committee).

As you recall, the IOC eliminated a few sports, namely baseball and softball, for the 2004 Olympics. Also on the chopping block was Greco-Roman wrestling. But we recieved a temporary pardon. The IOC told FILA that had to do 3 things to keep both styles viable beyond 2012.

First, they had to modernize the sports. Second, they had to make them more exciting. Lastly, they had to present a greater difference between the two styles. The IOC has promised to leave wrestling both styles through 2012 but there is no guarantee beyond that.

Wrestling needs to "modernize and become more exciting" ... those are big challenges. The IOC recently has added "excitement" sports or x-game activities but I think that the tradition-laden tendencies of wrestling will make this extremely difficult!

We (wrestling people) need to try and evolve into a sport the public, perhaps more accurately ... the corporate world, will support. Thus we see the advent of Beach Wrestling, Sombo, and Grappling into the "wrestling" arena.

FILA and USAW have these mandates at the same time they have to deal with grumblings in their midst. The US has tens of thousand of kids wrestling folkstyle that feel no obligation to support the whole of wrestling!

The folkstyler’s claim the rules that exist in Freestyle and Greco are to blame. The IOC agrees. But the “erosion of the rules” in FS and GR will continue until 2012. These next 5 years are critical for wrestling in the Olympics.

Frankly, I don’t envy USAW. They have to address concerns that are pulling them in opposite directions! I know … that I will support USA Wrestling!!

Randy, I think caring what the IOC or FILA say is our first problem. Why should we care about an Olympic sport where the ten percent of us who follow it, won't get to see anyway? Let's face it, the IOC is only eliminating sports they can not sell either tickets to, or on pay per view. My point is, someone needs to call the IOC's bluff, and FS/GR supporters here in the U.S. need to stand up to FILA and say no more rules changes. I believe sports which have a good public following can still flourish outside of the Olympic system.
I find it very convenient for USAW to finally acknowledge folkstyle wrestling as they see the dollars headed in that direction. My guess is, in 5 years USAW will act like they've never heard of FS/GR.

I will enter my voice with mixed emotion and thoughts. First, I for one agree the season is too long in Kansas. Especially when considering some kids wrestle the Oklahoma season which starts even earlier, but ends sooner. At that point out folkstyle season isn’t just the Kansas season, but one that crosses state lines. As one who has been doing this for a number of years, that makes a long season. While some kids can handle it, others can’t. My concern is that many of those who can’t are the ones getting burned out.

I guess a differing position is the attempt to push folkstyle on an international level. I am not certain, but I would like to see the numbers, I thought that in other parts of the world the Olympic Styles actually do quite well.

The Freestyle and Greco styles have a lengthy tradition. I would hate to see us as a country abandon them. I personally believe the new rule changes, with the exception of the clinch in FS has added to the excitement of those styles. This is especially true in Greco. As to calling the bluff of FILA, I would strongly caution against that, as I think we would loose that bluff. Baseball is the perfect example of that.

I am certain there were extensive efforts from the baseball community to not do away with baseball in the Olympic games, yet, that sport is now gone. While there are other options for baseball players, (to a limited national extent) wrestling does not provide those same options. For wrestlers, presently, the highest level of achievement is the potential of wrestling for your country. An option that could end up doing greater damage to the sport than we can imagine if we loose any further wrestling opportunities in the Olympic games.

I could go further, but will make this comment, the days where we as Americans think we can control the world of sport is done. The attitude that we can control things, whether from sport or political, is one of the issues that have us in so much trouble when it comes to garnishing the respect of others around the world. Other sports like basketball, and America’s game, Baseball, should have taught us that. While I am not advocating that we let FILA run over us, I am saying, we better be careful less we find ourselves advocating such a position that does the overall context of our sport more harm than good. It seems to me, that before we start trying to get the International Wrestling federation in order, we can do a better job at saving folkstyle in America. Unfortunately, even on a high school and college level, we have a hard and long struggle.

For those with aspirations beyond college, the potential of doing away with any style or form of sport is a scary thought. To try and push folkstyle is a seemingly impossible task, especially when considering that America is the only place where we wrestle this style. It would be interesting to hear from some of those like Akin, Roberson, Bunch, and others that now have those International goals as a part of their life. I will freely admit, the goals of honoring, and representing your country, are primary in our house. For some reason, come the Olympics, I think those goals exist in far more young men and women than we may ever realize