Why do kids open tournaments have to be treated like novice tournaments instead of varsity tournaments? My son was a state qualifier last year (did not win a match but qualified) and has worked hard to get better since then. For all his hard work and dedication he was put in a round robin with 3 other wrestlers, all of which were state placers. He wrestled tough and has some close matches but lost all 3. There was also a "B" round robin for his weight and age. In my opinion kids open tournaments should be like high school varisty tournaments. All kids entered at a weight and age should be put in the same bracket whether it be an 8 man bracket or higher. If a wrestler is not able to beat the state placers on the front side they should have the opportunity to wrestle out the back door. My son COULD have went 2-2 and got 4th instead of 0-3 and 4th, or possibly the kid that gets last in the "A" bracket sould have the opportunity to challenge the winner of the "B" bracket for the gold medal. Our high school is going to the Derby Tournament and the Newton Tournament in January, maybe they will have an "A" bracket and a "B" bracket at these varsity tournaments.

Coach Buckbee,

My opinion is that we should give all kids, especially those in the 6,8, and 10 under age groups, as much mat time as possible. If we put 32 kids in a single bracket there are going to be many kids who will only get two matches. When I bracket the Paola tournament I try to group these ages into five man round robin brackets to give the wrestlers a guaranteed four matches. The weekend, club sponsored tournaments are about getting experience. In March they will get a taste of "high school varsity" action. Believe it or not, more than 70% of the 6U wrestlers will quit before they get into the 14U group. We need to give all of the kids an opportunity to learn and to experience success and defeat in hopes that they will not quit.

I group based on the ratings and I try to seperate those from the same club. My goal is to give opportunity to wrestle lots of matches within the confines of the time and mat space available. There are lots and lots of big time tournaments to take your kid to if they want to go against the best. I have a list of them and their associated web sites. All of them are straight double elimination. Just shoot me an email if you would like the list.

Hope this helps.

Merry Christmas

Mr. Cokeley,

Believe it or not, I understand the reasoning behind this bracketing technique. I have been involved with bracketing club tournaments, middle school tournaments, and high school jv tournaments and have grouped according to ability. And I do believe if there are 5 or less in a weight class it should be a round robin, and I am all about getting expereince. What I am saying is that if over 70% of 6U wrestlers quit, maybe it is time to look at something different. Wrestlers entering an Open tournament should already have 2 years of experiencing success and defeat and should be ready to compete with ALL oncomers.

When weight classes are split into abiltiy, wrestlers like my son are at a disadvantage. He should be in the "A" bracket, but is at the bottom of it and will have more defeats then successes. If he is put in the "B" bracket he wins more but does not get better and when it comes to qualifying tournaments in March he is not ready. If the 2 brackets were combined he would have both success and defeats.

Due to a GREAT coaching staff and I hope good parenting (mostly from his mother), my son has a great attitude and understands that it is all practice until March. But if it is practice, and the state series is double elimination, maybe it should be simulated in the weekend tournaments. If weight classes have 6 or more wrestlers why not put them in an 8 man bracket and gain experience. In an 8 man bracket there are only 2 wrestlers that will get 2 matches, 5 wrestlers will experience some success and defeat, and 1 will experience success only. After 2 hard fought loses during the day it is hard for these young wrestlers to get up for the 3rd match, maybe it is time to go home.

Thank you for listening.

Coach Buckbee,

One other problem there is with the brackiting system that I have seen in the many tournaments that I have been involved in is the rating system. In other words I have recieved several entries where the clubs that sent there wrestlers in and did not even rate them and then there are some that honestly think that all of there wrestlers are A wrestlers. So as a tounament director it is very diffucult to be able to do the proper seeding. And I agree with Will if we were to put them all in one bracket we would have had to wait for several wtrestlers to have the time that is required between matches. It would be nice to put them in the same age and weights but I think that you just honestly dont have the time and the space to do it. And you would give up alot of quality matches.

Tuff
Paola Wrestling Club

Will,

Very well said!

Shawn Budke

Coach Buckabee,

If you want to have your wrestlers in bigger brackets then go to Oklahoma, Colorado, Missouri, or somewhere else. In Kansas, most tournaments are designed to teach kids wrestling and give them mat time to do it. All wrestlers will learn more from wrestling on Saturday/Sunday at a tournament then they ever will from practice. So thank you to all of the tournament directors and hosts for making this a learning experience for the young wrestlers.

I believe our goals at this level is to both grow our sport and grow out talent levels.

I have seen clubs who only focus on the best wrestlers in the club and never grow the lower level wrestlers. Eventually those clubs pay a price. Usually there is a tremendous drop-off in talent once the best wrestlers move into high school.

When we run our tournament, we will not run larger than 8 man brackets and we will try to give the wrestlers the most mat time possible. We are seriously considering running six man round robins in leui of 8 man brackets during our tournament simply to give all wrestlers as much mat time as possible.

If the younger wrestlers do not have some successes in our sport they will quit and never reach their potential.

Our goal is to help them reach their potential. In order to accomplish that we must put them in situations that give them the best opportunity to be successful.

I agree with Mr. Cokeley there are plenty of Big Tournaments out there that you can attend and wrestle only "A" brackets.

Just my two cents...
Thank You

Among the bigger problems our High School coaches have is getting an incoming freshman, with 5, 7, 10 years of experience that have not developed basic skills! Worse than no skills, they have a lot of bad habits that need to be corrected if they are going to survive in wrestling!

An athlete can make it pretty far in wrestling, especially if he has the warrior spirit but sooner or later, he needs to learn some sound fundamentals and develop some skills!!

We "Dads" need to develop skills!! Do not let your kids get away with sloppy technique because he is winning!

Mat time ... is what they need! Maybe the less experienced wrestlers need a little "coaching time" between periods!!! But round robins is a great tool! I have seen too many kids, get two matches that last a total of 30 seconds and learn nothing! (I've seen this a lot at Fargo!)

USAW Kansas Kids should have a mission statement that includes language about "skill development."

I don't think that everyone is understanding what Coach Buckbee is trying to say. His son is a B+ to A- wrestler. He enters him in as an A because he qualified for 8U state as a six year old. Now he gets pooled in bracket with A wrestlers only, the A wrestlers beat him by 1 or 2 points and he feels beat down for the tournament when he actually wrestled well. I think the problem with America today, is that we want everything to be fair. Make sure the kids feel good. What about this good kid, who gets beat 3 matches in a row by better kids. Open wrestlers should wrestle everyone in the open division...not just the ones that they can compete with. I guess the answer for Coach Buckbee is rate his son a B or C and work his moves on those kids, but is that FAIR.

I now live in pa and my son is still in wrestling. We only attend open tourneys or top 100 tourneys. My son is not the best in his weight class but we are very competetive. Pa does not have the (a, b, c) rankings in opens or in the novice tourneys for that matter. I for one am very happy about that because while we might get beat our first match of the day we still have plenty of opportunity on the backside. As we were wrestling in kansas last year his first year I finally pulled him from novice and rated him an a so that he could get beaten. I am an lod fashioned guy I guess you learn from wrestling the best and taking the beatings that go along with that. If you dont want your son to wrestle everyone in the bracket for fear of losing than I guess this is probably the wrong sport to be in. Conclusion PA is a great wrestling state and we dont make tourneys so that everybody goes home feeling like a winner someone has to lose, combine opens and novice I think it will produce alot more talent later through the years.

just my opinion, mike pirl

My oldest son went from never winning a match to winning a few to finally (after over 6 years in Kids fed) getting a chance to go to state. My third boy pinned every kid in his very first tournament and had early successes until he too was moved into A brackets after only a few years. Comparing the two seasons: I liked my oldest son's better. I understand what Coach Buckbee is saying. I understand how his son can get disappointed everytime he goes to a tournament when he has to compete against the A wrestlers and watches his teammates and buddies in easier brackets winning matches. BUT - I don't agree with what Coach Buckbee is suggesting tournaments start to do. I think what needs to be done is to have some sit-down time with his son and explain what an A bracket is and how going against the very best will only make his son stronger in the long run. We explain this to our son everytime he feels a little dejected. We tell him that if people didn't think he was really good, he wouldn't be in those brackets. Then we celebrate every accomplishment - whether it is going three rounds with a state placer or scoring a few points more than before against a tough opponent. After all, it's how well you improved that really matters in life.

Mom4, no offense but Coach Buckbee does not need a lesson in parenting. The man has been a parent and a coach for a long time and knows what he is doing in both. Could it be there is a problem with the system. I agree that mat time is invaluable, a 16 man round robin is not feasible and some poor kid is going to lose 16 matches. The reason for double elimination is 1) Find a winner, 2) no kid should have to lose more than two matches a day...and before someone brings up 5th and 6th, 4th should be the lowest place.

Just to clarify, I agree with Will. Weekend tourneys are for experience, and I think the kids should get mat time. What about a hard luck tournament, or putting A and B wrestlers together.

One more point that could be added to this. If you have a kid that isn't very good and you travel an average of 45 minutes one way to tournaments don't you want your kid to get the most matches possible. In an 8 man or 16 man double elimination bracket you will only get 2 matches if you aren't good enough and then you will be on your way home. I think that the round robin format is best for both the parents and the kids. Tournaments cost a lot of money when you include gas, food, entry fees, and other costs that go along with wrestling.


Just My Opinion.
Dan Wessel