Wow. I really have to scratch my head in reading some of these posts. I agree with limiting the brackets, however, if you have 14-16 kids at a weight and you can get a full 8 man a-b bracket, than do it. If you can't, put them all together. This is not about weeding out kids that "don't have the natural ability" nor is about handing out participation ribbons. They are kids for heaven's sake. It is about developing kids who love this sport. Yes, that is done in the room. It is also takes place on Saturday. Fifteen second matches developes neither.

Coach Massey
Olathe South Kids Club

I don't believe the ranking is to see who wins or looses, it is to try to get the best 2 wrestlers in the finals. If you dont rate the wrestlers and just through them in randomly you could have the best 2 in the bracket wrestling first round. That wont be good for the kids either.

I agree. Just this past weekend I took my 2 sons (both D wrestlers) to a novice tourney. Drove 2 hours, stayed in a hotel only to find out once we were there my 5 year old had a bracket full of A wrestlers, one actually placed last year at state, so much for novice wrestling.

My 8 year old was placed in the open tourney with A wrestlers. When I inquired about why he wasn't in the novice tourney I was told pretty much that I should of caught their mistake for them. I was asked if I was mainly upset because my boys weren't winning any matches. ????? We came there for mat time to build confidence and skills with kids of the same caliber. Instead my kids got their self-esteem knocked about 5 levels lower. What is going on here? I love watching good wrestling, love it! But, the only way to build an A wrestler is with practice and mat time.

Is it that important to win that clubs put their A wrestlers in D tourneys? I told a couple of coaches about the mix up on the side of the mat, I didn't ask for their wrestlers to go easy on him, I didn't ask for any special treatment for him, I just wanted them to know, instead I got headhunters looking at him for the quickest pin award, great sportsmanship guys.

I have no problem if my boys face an A wreslter in a regular tourney, that is life, that is fair, but when I take them to a novice event and they are in their bracket that is flat out wrong.

We stayed, we wrestled our matches even though we knew we were out classed, we accepted what was handed to us, we won't quit. It was a tough lesson to learn, but not one that was taken lightly.

Shame on A,B,or C wrestlers being at a Novice. Shame on the parents and Shame on the coaches. Your problem is a totally different color of horse then what this thread is about.

Massey, I agree with you. I would be fine with two, eight men brackets at a tournament. I do have a problem with four or five brackets. Four or Five Champions decreases the value of winning a tournament for everyone involved.

Beeson, agree with you 100%

I totally agree with the I wanna wrestle and I wanna win... Just think how tough the brackets would be then...

You've got to be kidding me. How benifical is it for C-D wrestlers to wrestle in a large bracket full of A wrestlers? And what does the A wrestler get out of it? I like when there are enough kids to break into 2-3 different brackets. If there isn't enough kids (at least 4) then I say combine them.

Just a thought, I know I've heard "that records mean nothing" but at an A or B level why not send in their record if applicable to get the best matches possible in the finals. I know my son has wrestled numerous tourneys where the top 2 face off 1st round, yes they were great matches but don't you think that should be saved for the final match. From what I've seen at a C or D level there isn't that big of a difference between those kids to really make a huge fuss over braketing. I do know most parents keep track of win/loss record for their kids. Just a thought.

then maybe we should just put one wrestler per team in any bracket and if your a wrestler isnt good enough to beat out your other a wrestler then he can just stay home and try out next time. pushing these kids at this young age ruins alot of good wrestlers by the time they get to the highschool level. I have seen many good wrestlers at a young age not even go out in highschool. guess I feel too much for those kids that get left out. Pardon me.

Thats why there should be only two brackets...competitive and learning. In Competitive there would be double elimination, ranking and seeding, no breaks between periods, first period falls, and medals or trophies. The Learning bracket would be a round robin, throw everyone together (don't worry about rankings),1 minute coaching breaks between periods, no first period falls, and participation ribbons.

i could live with that.

My opinion is that we need to keep kids interested in the sport so we need to rate them and group them where possible. Before they get to Middle School there is a fine line between experience and confidence. Experience is what you get when you don't win and confidence is what you get when you do. Kids will not stay in the sport without some level of success. Just because a kid is a stud when he is 8, 9, or 10 doesn't mean he will be when he gets older and if a kid is a dud he might become a stud if he doesn't quit. Chad you know there are plenty of tournaments around to put Jake in where you get what you are asking for. CK Kickoff, USJOC, Tulsa Nationals, California World Challenge, Indy Nationals, USA Nationals, Winter Nationals, any Roller or Rocky Mountain Nationals tournament. The local events should remain a vehicle to develop interest and provide mat time.

You guys are killing me............Beeson makes a comment, and I think yea.......that's right, then someone else makes a comment, and I think yea.........that's right, then Beeson replies to that and I agree whith his philosophy, then Cokeley makes his last comment and I agree with that. I'm trying not to be on both sides of the fense on this topic, but you all make valid points. As far as Beeson taking his son to all of these National Tournaments to gain the experience and the development he wants and needs to continue being successful, I would guess most people couldn't afford that. Beeson, do you have that kind of time and money? If so, send some down my way.

Seriously though, I do think tournament directors do need to split brackets up when possible (use common sense). If you have a bracket that has 2 A wrestlers, 1 B wrestler, and a couple C & D wrestlers, I don't think you should split it. Putting the A&B wrestlers together in a 3 man round robin wouldn't be a good idea. Instead of 2 and out, why not have a wrestle back for 5th & 6th to earn a ribbon. Give the top 4 medals and or trophy's, and give 5th & 6th place a ribbon. Just a thought. Seems like every time someone posts their opinion on this topic, I tend to see their point.

Jeff,
Don't tell me to be realistic, I am. I don't think you should have a bracket for every letter in the alphabet. Two brackets, thats all you need. Put A's and B's together and C's and D's together. You be realistic, if you are a coach or around these kids that wrestle then you would think that you could tell that not all are blessed with the same talent. I'm not gonna tell my C&D wrestlers to stay home cause they are'nt good enough to wrestle in an open tournament, or hey go to practice, when they been there every day. Man if that's the way you,tcctmickey, and Beeson feel you all are guys that I hope never get a chance to coach a kids club.
Mike

Will, I agree that local tournaments need to develope the kids and keep their interest. I don't think 5 different brackets is the way to go though. I think two and out in a C and D bracket is not asking too much, I mean they are wrestling C and D wrestlers.

Pelland, I don't have that kind of money or time...sorry I will not be sending any that way. I do hit as many of the big tournaments as we can though.

2Coach, too late I already coach a kids club. We have several C and D wrestlers and I work with them ALOT. The coaches and parents reactions to a win or a loss influences a kid more than the actual win or a loss. I have no problem if my C or D goes two and out in a CD bracket. I do have a problem with a D wrestler getting a 4th place medal in a four man round robin. That's a slap in the face...you got last here is your medal.

I think we all love to see our kids win. I try and tell my boys you have to learn from a lose just like you do a win. I agree with splitting the brackets up A and B C and D if you can. I tell my boys that all these tournaments are practice for subdistricts, districts , and hopefully state. The only problem i can see with splitting them up is when you do seed them in sub's how do you seed the kids say if a A or B wrestler has a 25-10 record then you have a C or D wrestler with a 30-5 record would it be fair for the A or B wrestler to be seeded lower than the C or D wrestler that some how becaame a A or B wrestler right before subdistricts? My boys always go for first place just like iam sure everyone elses kids do and they know you have to beat everyone to get that but when you have maybe the two best on the same side of the bracket in sub's because the C or D wrestler jumped in the spot of the A wrestler because of his or her's better record is that fair?

Beeson, I agree with you 100%...I understand mat time in round robin format, Now is our $15.00 entry fee buying a medal or quality wrestling??? I like the bigger brackets if they are seeded correctly.. I wouldn't say 4th place in a round robin is a slap in the face for a novice or a c/d wrestler, I have quite a few in that category this year and for them to receive a medal is a huge boost to their ego...Now as for what I like to call the "BIG BOYS" (A) wrestlers I will agree that sucks, They know 4th is last place in round robin format... P.S. Will gave Villars a good run last week. I'll take a 3-0 loss to that stud

Beeson,
That remark was'nt really towards you. I'm sorry if I crossed the line with you. I do agree that there shoud'nt be that many brackets. But let kids be kids. I'm done with this topic.Some of you guys have good ideals hopefully they take notice of some of them...

2coach, we're good, no hard feelings.

Spex, sorry I had to miss the match...sounds like it was a good one.

As a tournament director myself and a parent of an "A" wrestler I figured I would weigh in on this topic from both sides. (and no I am not riding the fence on the topic)

From a tournament director's point of view, I like to see all kids have some sort of success in order to keep their interest in the sport for years to come. This is why we try to have our Open and Novice tournaments run on the same day. In the Open side, this year we opened up our first 32 man bracket that was chocked full of A wrestlers, luckily I knew several of the kids in the bracket and their abilities and hopefully seeded it properly. We also give away 4" medals for the Open side with 2" medals for the Novice. it is my opinion that in order to earn those larger medals you need to step it up and in a 16 man or 32 man bracket, 3rd or 4th place is still quite an acheivement. In the Novice side my rule of thumb is to stop at an 8 man bracket and look for possibilities of using a 5 man round robin. That's 4 matches for each kid in the bracket in one day no matter win or lose. I have also noticed trackwrestling using 6 man round robin brackets which I am not sold on as of yet, but it could be a good thing for the C-D wrestlers and Novice wrestlers to incorporate 6 man round robins in order to get mat time and experience. Maybe we should start adopting FS/GR bracketing where you have a random draw into 2 round robin pools then 1st and 2nd in each pool draws into the championship bracket. This would eliminate any seeding problems. Just a thought.

As for seeding by other tournaments, I know that it can be difficult when you receive 8 entries at the same weight and they are all ranked "A" wrestlers. My rule of thumb in this situation is to 1. separate teammates 2. separate district clubs. This seems like a fair way to handle that type of situation. As for putting D wrestlers in with A and B wrestlers if it is an Open tournament and there is no Novice available, well, that's life.

As a father of an "A" wrestler I tell my son if he draws a "D" wrestler in a bracket to work moves and work for a Tech Fall instead of getting a quick pin. Quick pinning a D wrestler does nothing for either child, however, working moves teaches the stronger wrestler how to flow from move to move, and hopefully teaches the weaker wrestler some defensive tactics that he can work on in the practice room. Heck, i've seen my son pull a D wrestler off his back and then give him tips after the match on how to defend some of the moves he was working. I also don't like to see seeding on a bracket where it pits the 2 strongest wrestlers in the bracket against each other in the first round. This is somewhat unfair to the other kids in the bracket, since one of the "A"'s has to lose that first match it then puts him on the backside of the bracket to knock out the other kids that may have had a shot at placing 3rd or 4th if the bracket were seeded correctly.

Sorry I am so long-winded but I thought I might as well get my 2 cents in since I haven't posted much on these forums much this year so far.

Craig Gash
Derby Wrestling Club
Tournament Director