Need some help. I am working a recommendation from Roy Oeser of Maize HS. The plan would be to have two - 16 team class 6A regionals with the top 8 wrestlers advance to class 6A state. I also visited with coaches from the Mazie regional they seemed to be in favor of this recommendation. The problem is I need the hard copy recommendation for the KWCA meeting this saturday here in Manhattan. Roy did not have a hard copy. If someone has a copy please fax to 785-587-2155. Maybe Coach Hibler could email me or call 785-587-2100. Thank You from Coach Gonzales

Coach

I will try to e-mail you this afternoon. If not I will call you. Tell me what you want in this hard copy and I will get it done.

Thanks to Coach Hibler, Coach Shelton, & Coach Parks for their quick efforts and help. I talked with Roy as he was preparing tests for next hour class. I have the hard copy and I will include with other recommendations for the KWCA executive board meeting this Saturday. RMG

Okay Gonzo, what are you up to? No way was Roy preparing to give a test! That would imply that he's been teaching. Seriously, I think this is good for wrestling in 5 & 6A. If there is anything I could do as an outsider, please let me know.

What is the reasoning behind doing this?
Two 16 team regionals mean 8 qualifiers from each regional.
Won't that require a two day tournament to wrestle out to 8th place?

Yes it will require a 2-day regional, 321A & 4A already have this format.

Bob or Roy,

Could you give us some advantages to this format?

Gary Ulmer

Yes how would this work? I don't see enough teams to do this.

It eliminates the possibility of a "weak" eight team regional. It is a step in the right direction but as a state we are so far behind we need to be taking a couple of steps not one. There is NO WAY we should be sending more than 50% of 5A and 6A wrestlers to state (I am saying more because we all know that there are many schools that do not have a full line up.) 5A and 6A need to be combined. That is the bottom line.

I agree Will, 100 percent.

I am not advocating any particular format. But I guess if they (The state body KSHSAA) or Kansas Coaches Association whoever decide on a format - wouldn't they have to do that the same for 1A,2A,3A, and also for 4A. Because the same could be true in those cases one regional maybe stronger than the other and somebody gets left home. It happens all the time even in kids wrestling where one subdistrict has all the top 4 places at state and the kid who stayed home from a particular subdistrict could of placed 5th or 6th in state and never made it to districts. Just about any format they use someone will be left out of the mix.

Will and Maybe,

If we combined 5A and 6A, sixteen kids would get to participate in state instead of thirty-two. Six kids would get to mount the podium instead of twelve. How in the world does denying young people the opportunity to feel good about themselves make wrestling better?

I don't know that the 6A state sixth placer in each weight class is less of an athlete than the 4A state sixth placer in those same weight classes. I am sure there are statistics that can make that argument, just as someone surely can make the same claim the other way. Even if it is true, SO WHAT?

How can wrestling in Kansas possibly be harmed in a system that allows more kids to stand in the sunshine?

Now, I would like to get back to my question to Bob and Roy. What are the advantages of two 16 man regionals advancing 8 to state for 6A?

Gary Ulmer

Gary:

Don't get me wrong; I agree that it would be unfortunate to cut out an entire class and keep 16 kids from the State tournament. However, State should mean something more that having half of the kids in one class qualify for State. In 4A it's roughly a quarter and in 3-2-1A it's even less.

Maybe what we need to look at instead of combining classes is perhaps realigning them. Here is a modest proposal:

If I did that math right (which is always up for grabs), 211 schools entered Regionals this year (32 each in 6A & 5A, 62 in 48 and 85 in 3-2-1A). What if for wrestling we scrapped the current KSHSAA classes and went with something like this:
Class I: Top 48 schools in enrollment
Class II: The next 48 schools
Class III: The next 48 schools
Class IV: The remaining 67

The top three classes would all have two-day, 12-team Regionals with the top four going to State. The other class would have two-day Regionals as well.

As more schools add wrestling, they would simply go into the pile wherever they fall in enrollment, and schools will move in classes based on that. The same number of kids would still qualify for State, but instead of half of the kids making it in two class and a quarter or fifth in others, the balance would be much better.

Like I said, it was just a thought, but if might be a fair compromise.

Maybe,

16 kids in 6A in each weight class represent the 32 largest schools in Kansas who represent thousands of enrolled students. In 5A it takes more schools to create the same enrolled student base, 4A more schools yet, and a bunch in 3A.

In your proposal the next 16 largest schools are added to the already existing 6A schools to make class I. Now how many more thousand students will be represented by just 16 kids.

Then of course the following Class II, III, and IV in your proposal would have 16 kids per weight class in their state tournaments representing much smaller numbers in student enrollment instead of nearly equal numbers as it is now.

Gary Ulmer

Valid point Gary, but we need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.

If a given 6A school has 25 kids out for wrestling and a 4A has 25 kids out, what's the difference? Granted, the 6As and 5As have bigger talents pools available, but it's not the talent pool that drives the bus, it's the talent itself.

In many ways, this argument is one of what you yourself are most used to doing. For 6A schools, you know that in a full bracket at Regionals, two wins and you're in. In a full bracket in 4A or 3-2-1A, you need four or more wins over two days to get there. There should be a better balance there and my plan would create that balance, would level the playing field and would still allow for exactly the same number of kids to qualify for State as now do.

Again, you make a valid point Gary; mine is just one possible alternative.

Maybe,

So are you saying that 4A and 3-2-1A wrestlers are more talented than 5A and 6A wrestlers, and are driving the bus?

Gary Ulmer

No Gary, that's not what I am saying. This is not the old argument about the classes about who is best -- I hope this isn't sinking to that level.

As I said, this is simply one idea, and it is vastly less drastic that combining 6A and 5A. But being realistic, Missouri has four classes for wrestling and this is basically the same system number-wise as theirs. Iowa has well over 300 wrestling schools and only has three classes; its biggest class is 64 schools, and anytime someone brings up going to four classes, they're treated like heretics!

This isn't an attack on 6A or 5A or anything like that. There is a proposal on the table and I merely made another suggestion; no more or less out there of a suggestion than any other.

And, to be honest, if we're going to leave the classes the way they are, then going to a two-Regional, eight-qualifier system ONLY for 6A and 5A is a good idea that I would fully support.

I agree with you, Gary. I am sure this is the basis of why the class structure is divided the way it is now.

Also, the two of years I would put 5A up against any of the classes in overall quality. I think 5A would have done real well in a post season tournament with just the state placers competing the last two years. I don't know if it is always that way but I think that some of the top wrestlers and teams in Kansas have been in 5A the last two years.

I am not as familiar with 6A but I also know they too had some of the top teams and wrestlers the last two years.

Maybe,

You have already allowed it to sink.

Husker,

You are right. You have to overlook a lot of 5A and 6A success to make such observations.

Gary Ulmer

That is a pretty good idea!!!

If I did that math right (which is always up for grabs), 211 schools entered Regionals this year (32 each in 6A & 5A, 62 in 48 and 85 in 3-2-1A). What if for wrestling we scrapped the current KSHSAA classes and went with something like this:
Class I: Top 48 schools in enrollment
Class II: The next 48 schools
Class III: The next 48 schools
Class IV: The remaining 67

The top three classes would all have two-day, 12-team Regionals with the top four going to State. The other class would have two-day Regionals as well.