I would defer the hypothetical state placing of SME in 4A to the Great Chief who hales from SME. How you fared in duals may not give you the answer you are looking for. I know that you had one wrestler who garnered BIG points for you in 6A and he most likely would not have been on the podium in 4A. JMO.

Chief, are you out there??

These wins were all in tournaments, not duals. If we are going to compare individuals, I know one SME wrestler who had 2 wins over the 4a state champ and one win over the 4a runner-up.

Chief's team stats are the source of my results.

Now you know that SME was the exception this year. The mighty Lancers would have done just fine in 4A. IMO, our 140, 189 and 215 would have made the finals with 2 titles.

One last post and then I am done with this as I recognized long ago this forum will not help change the KSHSAA. If a wrestler asked you these questions how would you explain your answer (please do not say, "Because it is a rule!):

Dad, why can't my coach help me after state when I want to go to (insert name of tournament)?

Coach, why can't we go to the Beast of the East so I can wrestle the best wrestlers in the country?

Coach, why do have to take a weekend off, I want to wrestle every weekend and as many matches as possible?

Coach, why do we have to take a week off of practice and then have to make scratch weight for two more weeks?

Coach, why can't we get tape on wrestlers I might have to face at the state tournament?

Dad, why do I have to miss the first week of practice at school so I can wrestle in the Cliff Keen Kickoff?

Coach, Joe Blow doesn't have anyone to work out with in his room can he and I practice together so we can improve?

Dad/Coach, why are there four state champions at each weight? I never got to wrestle (insert names of other champions)?

If you have a tough time explaining it to a kid then it must not make much sense.

Clay Center-Clay Center Comm., 151.00; Andale, 116.50; Colby, 112.00; Goodland, 74.50;
Abilene, 60.00; Andover-Central, 59.50; Chanute, 55.00; Altamont-Labette County, 54.00; LaCgyne-
Prairie View, 53.50; Baldwin, 50.00

These were the top 10 from 4A. I am not sure I agree with your 215 assessment as 4A was LOADED at that weight. 140, Joey would have been in the hunt. How about 285? I don't know your guy but the 4A guys were pretty decent. I would definitely give Matt the nod. I concede top 10 but probably not top 5.

Actually, I know of the Iowa Activities Association administrator for wrestling, having been in some meetings with him. He is a good and decent man who would be distressed, to find out that Iowa high school coaches were violating their Association rules.

The "it was a stupid rule anyway" defense has not won many, if any, legal disputes.

Greg Mann
Norton
Top



You have got to be kidding, Iowa Coaches are not breaking any rules its just like it is stated they are working to improve the kids in the sport look at there web site it blows KS site out of the water what child made the Kansas High School Athletic web site they have to rely on the USA KIDS site really have you looked I have wake up Kansas you have to get some cheap looking results on the Kansas Kids site just to keep up with the High School State Tournament why don’t the combine the 5a and 6a it is really watered down 32 Schools in each class why not make them the top 64 then work there way on down the Iowa coaches are not breaking any rules Kansas High School does not even do a good job of promoting wresting at the High School level.

http://www.iahsaa.org/wrestling/index.html

Why does Iowa have such a nice web site real friendly and easy to use with real information? You folks from Kansas have to USE the USAW Kids site to get information and it is real good except that the KSHSAA should have there own for all the dollars that flow in there paying outrages salaries to Administrators and coaches get zip

Has someone abducted Coach O and Coach Gonzo?

I would be interrested in allowing the best 16 kids in our watered down classes a chance to get to the state tournament.

I am also trying to find a way to FEASIBLY get into a better schedule since my guys only get 5-10 good matches a year. Clay Center, Bishop Carroll, Salina South, Newton TOC, Beloit Inv, Junction City tournaments aren't very deep and we don't get much challenge in our dual schudule with Hutch, Derby, Goddard and Maize.

I also would like to volunteer to coach year round for the same salary I receive right now because I love spending so much time with other people's children and away from my own. After I do all that, I really like seeing on message boards where I suck at the job I'm doing and how I should get off my lazy a** and travel around the country to see how Billy Bob is way better.

Lastly, why does every rule have to be ignored just because we don't like it? Since when do we want the people spending so much time around our young people to blatantly violate rules and then "wink wink" like it's a good thing? Change?

How about do the right thing ALWAYS just because it's the right thing to do? Very few of my wrestlers or football players will compete at the college or national level but they will ALL hopefully be good citizens and have families of their own. Hopefull they will pay their taxes and support the endeavors of other young people even when they don't have kids because someone else had the foresight to set our system up for everyone and because it's the right thing to do.

Gary:

I think Coach O and Coach Gonzo hightailed it for the hills after this took off the direction it did.

As for the rest of your post — BRAVO!

And, I was disappointed to see that Will has made his last post without providing the documentation I invited him to provide about states that do things his way. It would have been interesting to see which ones do and how their rules read.

Painting thickly with a broad brush always leads to splatter.

Coach Seibel,

If any of your wrestlers or football players need jobs send them my way.

What I would like to ask Coach Gonzales or Coach Oeser is what are the advantages of changing the format of the 6A regionals to two 16 man tournaments with the top 8 going to state.

Gary Ulmer

--Coach, why can't we go to the Beast of the East so I can wrestle the best wrestlers in the country?--

I know I shouldn't even reply to any of this nonsense but...
Tell me what school would have enough money to take a Varsity Roster to this tournament? Do you think every kids' parent would be able front hundreds of dollars for this? Just because one parent can afford to send their kid any place in the country doesn't make it wrong that KSHSAA doesn't allow that kind of travel. I think most of the questions that were asked should say.
*Dad(to self), why can't my son's coach help me after state when I(meaning dad) want to go to (insert name of tournament)?

*Coach, why do I(meaning dad) have to take a weekend off, I (meaning dad) want to wrestle every weekend and as many matches as possible?

*Coach, why can't we(meaning dad) get tape on wrestlers I(meaning dad) might have to face at the state tournament?

*If you have a tough time explaining it to a kid(meaning dad) then it must not make much sense.

By the way when I said:

"...I should get off my lazy a** and travel around the country to see how Billy Bob is way better."

I really don't need to travel around the country to see coaches better than I...I see them every weekend during the season. Hats off to coaches Ross, Means, Charbonnaeu, Hutchinson, Johnson, Garcia, Eschelman et al.

Will, I do respect you. I have seen 1st hand the work that you have put into helping youth wrestling in this part of the state. Just because I disagree with you on some things, does not mean that I don’t respect you.



Actually I believe the majority of that money goes to the state, who then divides the money up based on the enrollment of each school, granting weight to certain students who require more to educate. There fore USD 232 does not receive a lot of that money because your children attends else where (a choice that you are free to make, and for which I pass no judgement- you should do what you feel is best for your children). The exception is for bond issues and also for the mill levy tax, which you may be referring your $80,000. If everyone could just put their money into the school they wanted to, that would lead to the catastrophic collapse of the educational system. The vast majority of students would still be stuck in the school in which they lived near, but those with the resources to go elsewhere would simply take their more substantial money and apply it to a much smaller portion of the kids. That would be very disastrous for the majority of kids in Kansas. Fortunately our system is set up to benefit all, not just those willing and able to pay for something else.



As far as I know, he has no say regarding any rule changes for the support, other than participating on a committee regarding the weight loss program. I too wish that the 2 pound growth allowance would be awarded after break, and I think is something the KWCA should continue to push for.



If this rule were to be changed so that wrestling coaches could have unrestricted access to athletes outside of season, that rule would most likely be changed for all sports. I for one do not want to see that happen. Imagine if you will that football coaches (even though I am a FB coach also, I know the rep that many FB coaches have which is why I am picking on them) could then coach their kids all year. This would lead to a situation that would not foster multi-sport athletes, and in my opinion the sport of wrestling would lose many- many fine wrestlers, because they would be forced to make a decision- and lets face it football for many is easier and a more glamorous sport. I just think there are a lot of consequences that would be negative for our sport’s participation.



As far as the travel restriction I feel someone else already addressed that, although I don’t think it is a valid argument to say not everyone could do it, so no one can do it. Some schools won’t allow any overnight stays during the season due to budget restrictions, but there aren’t rule to out law that for other schools. I think the biggest concern for KSHSAA is time away from school. Maybe the rule should be a limit on number of school days missed for competition instead of a mileage rule. That would be more difficult to enforce- but in my opinion would be a better way to address the core issue.

I also agree with Coach Seibel, that my main job is to prepare young people to be good citizens. Hopefully I can make a positive impact in that regard, working with other peoples children. I feel that adequate respect for that endeavor would do a lot to help recruit people into the profession.

After reading my own post I just want to say that I am not attacking anyone in any personal way because I do not know any of you personally. I just can't sit back and read about people talking about coaches as if we don't do much for our student/athletes. As someone said before, we want our athletes to be good people. Can you measure someones success and dedication to the sport by wins and losses, state championships, tournament championships....no, you really can't. Does the guy on my team that has won less than ten matches in 3 years not work as hard as the guy who has lost less than 10 in 3 years even if they both wrestle year-round? Does ability not have anything to do with it? Does a kid who plays 3 sports need to be driven away from the other 2 sports because his wrestling coach is allowed to coach him year-round now and in order to be successful he needs to not play other sports so he can be a state champion in wrestling? Kansas probably sends about 1-5% of their athletes to college to wrestle. Do you really think that would change if all of these rules got changed? I know some change is good but what do you really want from KSHSAA. Maybe we should just send the "good kids" to increase their 10 "quality" matches they get a year. There a bigger fish to fry when it comes to high school athletics. Ask guys like Troy Hodges and Randy Westfal what kinds of problems they dealt with on a day to day basis with most of the kids they coached. I guarantee the number one thing on their mind wasn't wins and losses. It was about making a positive difference in the lives of our youth and is that what were doing by bending rules and calling things "stupid".

Zach:

I only wish we were all as articulate as you in this matter. You have in a few words truly summed up what it means to be a coach/educator. Keep up the good work!

1) Who else is going to help my kids if I can't? ($3.24 a gallon, how many of my kids can drive to Akin twice a week or go to rooms in KC, I don't have a stable of past studs who live in the community and will work with my kids)
2) Kids are not like they used to be, you tell a kid today he has to do something he doesn't want to do and his response is screw you. (parents and kids won't put up with coaches abusing/overdoing practice time)
3) KSHSAA is to restrictive. Why can't a basketball coach set up a league and run it so the kids who want to play basketball in the summer can stay in the community and play?? Why can't a football coach coach his own 7 on 7 team?? If I have kids that want to spend $65 and enter a national tournament and I am willing to take a personal day and drive them and coach them for 5 matches, why the hell not?
4) I could go on and on. Some of you speak about making good citizens. I know a ton of coaches who are great for their wrestlers. Those kids often times learn more about themselves and how to be a great person at a tournament or practice then they do anywhere else. Why drastically limit the amount of time they can spend with their coaches? If a coach is abusing the kids somehow, then fire him!! Don't punish those who would do the right thing because you are afraid that some would do the wrong thing.

I am sorry to break from my statement but I have to post this:

Walter, you are the man!!!

I've been involved with this sport for almost 40 years. I mention that not as an award or curse, only as a reference. I've seen/been around or part of great wreslting people and programs and I've seen and been around some not so good people and programs. As I read through these posts it's appears to me that there is fact in a little bit of what everyone is saying.
Will makes some great points as many of the other posters do as well. I've been to many of the same tournaments Will talks about, I see the same coaches either in the corner or leaning on a nearby matside rail. Heck you could find them at our KS youth tournaments if you wanted to.
Will (as well as many other posters) is well aware that it is usually only through extra reps against tougher competition will an athlete of any sport get better over time. We were part of program where the HS coach opened the room on the first day of the season and closed the room on the last day and was not seen again until the opening of the next season. My son, who practically wrestles year round was left to fend for himself. We've had another coach who was as dedicated to coaching as any of his wrestlers were to wrestling. If they wanted to wrestle he would be there. Neither coach was married, both were teachers, outstanding men and relativley young, but with two polarized philosophies. I think Will's point is, for a son like mine and for coach who wants to coach, why not let them wrestle and coach to their hearts content? It would have made my life as a parent/husband/coach/financier/bus driver more simple.
I also recognize that many teams can not travel to those national tournaments but, that said, why restrict those who maybe can? Some of our best wrestling memories are from the various national team competitions we've been fortunate enough to participate in. It seems to me if a team can go to the "Beast of the East" or whatever then let them go! It may be one of the most memorable times that team or those kids will ever have. KS has a match limit today, if it falls within their match limits why does it matter where they wrestle the match? Finances will always be an issue that are raised, but I ask, how many car washes or bake sales have you been to/through for little league baseball or a cheerleading camp? They tend to find a way to make it work. It's not everyday/year they go but they do find a way.
I don't know if KS is behind or not as compared to our surrounding states. Although, I must admit is was a little surprised at what appeared to be low numbber of college wrestlers
Richard Salyer had on his list in another post. Maybe it's not low, I really don't have much context to compare.
I think that we as a wrestling community should consider a little give and take instead of what appears to be a "winner take all" approach. Everyone can win IF we want it to.

Dean Watson

Most of the changes proposed by Will Cokeley on this forum make since in and of their self... I think many of you are getting hung up by his approach. While I commend Will for all he has done and continues to do for wrestling in our State, I would caution that change cannot be made from inside a box. Change shouldn’t be feared; but often times change in the name of “good intentions” has a negative impact in other areas. Also, sometimes it is easier to get what you want changed incrementally instead of upsetting the entire apple cart. Finally, you should always try and understand you opposition’s point of view; I find this always leads to a better debate...and usually a better resolution at the end of the day. Not even Donald Trump has the luxury of firing everybody that pisses him off…eventually you have to work “with” those charged with the job-at-hand to make a positive difference.

Here is an article in today's Lawrence Journal World in which it discusses similar challenges that baseball has. I will point out that baseball is unique in that I think there are no limits to the number of players, the amount, or type of instruction that coaches can give in the off-season.


Baseball Challenges

Will, here's a thought, if you dont like the rules here in kansas why dont you just move and send your kids to Blair Academy?