Another option for potential sponsorship is the US Army or Marines. The US Army sponsored the Metro Classic last year and loved it.

If you were to pitch the dual format (because of the teamwork link to the Armed forces) you could probably get some form of sponsorship from the Army. The only real requirement they have is to be able to set up a booth. Not a big deal because they usually give away cool stuff at the booth.

Erik Hinkley.....where you at brother? He's the man with the know-how on how to do this stuff with Army sponsorship!

Shawn Budke

i would like to see either one cus i think both would be fun but i gotta go with grand state cus the kids who could do well in grand state may com from teams that wouldnt go very far in dual state

How about a Grand Dual State!

Isn't the idea of a Grand State - Dual State format to showcase our best wrestlers? Admittidly either would help the sport, but doing a Dual State tournament would exclude some of the best wrestlers in the state. If you have a Grand State your including the best of the best from every school regardless of the school's ability to compete at a dual level. Isn't this what we want the recruiters to see? Either helps the sport, but with half the wrestlers sitting at home because their team wasn't strong enough to qualify for dual state I don't think we accomplish the goal of 1)finding out who the absolute best in the state is and 2)presenting our best at a venue that would be attractive to recruiters from major college programs. As far as attendance, I don't think we'd have a problem packing the stands for a grand state tournament. You have the best 224 kids in the state going at it for the ultimate state title. Just 321A packs Gross Memorial every year, and I would suspect that if you have every true wrestling fan in the state from all classes show up to one venue, the stands will be full no matter where you have it.

Great post Dylan ... I absolutely concur!!

Dylan,

Great post. I think you touched on the overarching issue...

What is the overall purpose of an event like this?

If the answer is to showcase individual wrestlers, etc. then you are spot on.

If the answer is to try and grow the general fan base and provide an event that is exciting to the general public and not just wrestling fans, then the dual tournament is the way to go (IMO).

In a perfect world there would be both....unfortunatelly we don't live in a perfect world.

I voted for the Dual because I think we have enough venues for individuals to show their stuff and accomplish their individual goals. The idea of a State dual appeals to me because I think it is exciting, appeals to a larger fan base, and is becoming a victim of some outdated rules.

In my opinion, dual meets get at the heart of what is great about the sport of wrestling...

1. It's for everyone (doesn't matter what shape or size)
2. Success is directly proportional to amount of effort you put into.
3. Discipline
4. Teamwork.....this is what makes sports so fun in high school. Representing your school, having the fans cheer for you, sweating, bleeding and competing with your buddies.....heck it doesn't get any better than that!

Just my 2 cents.

Shawn Budke

How would duel teams qualify? It makes no sense to use regular regional tournament results or state tournament results as a qualifier. That totaly defeats the purpose of a duel state championship. WHY would we use tournament points instead of duel results as a qualifier?

Maybe use league champions as a qualifier?

I would much rather see a grand state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a huge difference in using tournament results for an eight man regional compared to a sixteen man regional!

Take St. James for example, they would probably score much higher as a team in a sixteen man regional than they would in an eight man regional.

This is how they do it south of the border. Very similar to football in that you have districts setup to have the duals:

V. OKLAHOMA DUAL TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP FORMAT
A. DIVISION OF SCHOOLS
1. There will be four classes of competition. Wrestling districts will be classified for a two year period using the most current A.D.M. available.
NOTE: Classifications for the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 dual state districts were based on the 2005-2006 A.D.M. sheet.
2. Each class (6A, 5A, 4A, and 3A) will have eight districts.
3. Each team in a district will be required to wrestle a dual against other district teams. This may be done through duals or other multi-team competition. All district duals shall be completed by February 3, 2009.
4. The first place team (best won-lost record) in each district will advance to the dual state championship tournament.
NOTE: THE CHAMPION SHOULD NOTIFY THE ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION AS SOON AS THE DISTRICT CHAMPION HAS BEEN DETERMINED.
5. Teams that have qualified for the Dual State Wrestling Championships should fax their seeding information form (mailed with dual state information in January) to the OSSAA by February 4, 2009.
B. 2009 DUAL STATE CHAMPIONSHIP FORMAT
1. The Dual Team State Wrestling Tournament will be held February 13-14, 2009.
2. The Dual Team State Wrestling Tournament will be a two day format hosted by Western Heights High School for Classes 5A-6A and Cushing High School for Classes 3A-4A.
3. The quarterfinals will be wrestled at 6:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. on Friday. The semi-finals will be wrestled at noon and 2:00 p.m. The championship finals will be wrestled at 7:00 p.m. on Saturday night.
4. Only one official per mat will be used for the quarterfinal and either one or two officials will be used for the semifinal rounds. Two officials per mat will be used for the championship finals. Officials will be selected by the OSSAA.
5. The times on the first round will alternate each year between the top and bottom of each bracket.
C. WEIGH-IN
1. There will be two weigh-ins for the Dual State Championships. Weigh-in times on Friday will begin at 4:30 p.m. for the 6:00 p.m. duals and will begin at 6:30 p.m. for the 8:00 p.m. duals. Weigh-in times on Saturday will begin at 10:30 a.m. for the 12 noon duals and 12:30 p.m. for the 2:00 p.m. duals.
2. All participants must weigh-in at the designated time for their dual and at the designated site.
3. The mat officials assigned by the OSSAA may conduct the weigh-ins. If not, a neutral party should be present to conduct the weigh-ins. If it is not possible to have a neutral party available, a district administrator (principal or athletic director) should be present to conduct the weigh-ins.
4. There will not be a weight allowance for the Dual State Championships except for the two pound growth allowance. However, there will be a one pound allowance for the second weigh-in per National Federation Rule 4-5-5.
5. Dual State is a post-season state championship event and the weight certification rule will be in effect which states, “Once you certify your minimum weight, you can only weigh-in one weight class above your minimum weight and still keep that minimum weight. A wrestler who weighs in at any time more than one weight class above his/her minimum weight, his/her minimum weight will move up accordingly.”
6. All wrestlers must weigh-in on Friday to weigh-in on Saturday.
7. Teams may alter their line-up from Friday to Saturday providing they are in compliance with the weigh-in certification regulations. (see II-D-17)
8. Random draw of weight classes to determine the beginning of a dual at Dual State will be drawn at the OSSAA office for each day of competition.
D. SEEDING AND BRACKETING OF DUAL STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS
1. A committee selected by the president of the Oklahoma Wrestling Coaches' Association will assist the OSSAA in seeding the Dual State Championships, if needed. Members of this committee will consist of two representatives from each class. One representative will be from the west and the other from the east. A committee member’s team may not be participating in the Dual State Championships.
2. The seeding criteria for the Dual State Wrestling Championships will be as follows:
a. Head to Head Competition. (Teams that have tied during the regular season will use the tie breaker criteria. If two teams have evenly split wins (one-one, two-two, etc.) during the season, the last match wrestled will count towards a team’s won-loss record.)
b. Record against common opponent.
Wrestling 2008-09
260 OSSAA
c. OWCA state ratings.
d. Tournament placings at the same tournament after January 1st.
e. Coaches/OSSAA committee.
3. The bracket for each class of the Dual State Championships will be bracketed as follows:
a. The winners of districts 1, 2, 3, and 4 will be seeded.
b. The winners of districts 5, 6, 7, and 8 will be seeded.
c. Seeds will be placed on the bracket as follows:
d. W1 - E4; E2 - W3 (top of bracket)
e. E1 - W4; W2 - E3 (bottom of bracket)
E. CRITERIA FOR SETTLING TIES IN A DUAL MEET AND TIES IN THE DUAL STATE DISTRICT TEAM STANDINGS
1. In dual meet competition, if teams have identical scores, the following team tie-breaking system shall be used to determine the winner.
a. The team whose opposing wrestlers or team has been penalized the greater number of team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct shall be declared the winner.
b. The team having won the greater number of matches (including forfeits) shall be declared the winner.
c. The team having accumulated the greater total number of falls, defaults, forfeits and disqualifications shall be declared the winner..
d. The team having the greater number of technical falls shall be declared the winner.
e. The team having the greater number of major decisions shall be declared the winner.
f. The team having the greater number (total match points) of first-point(s) scored shall be declared the winner.
g. The team having the greater number of points for near-falls shall be declared the winner.
h. The team having the greater number of takedowns shall be declared the winner.
i. The team having the greater number of reversals shall be declared the winner.
j. The team having the greater number of escapes shall be declared the winner.
k. The team whose opponent has been penalized the greater number of points for stalling.
l. The team whose opponent has been warned more often for stalling.
m. The team whose opponent has the greater number of points for all other infractions (i.e. false starts).
n. If none of the above resolves the tie, a flip of a disk will determine the winner.
Upon determining the winning team by use of the tiebreaking system, a single team point shall be added to the prevailing team. The method of recording the score in breaking team ties shall be the score followed by the letter of the criterion that broke the tie (e.g. Team A-16; Team B-17, criterion e).
2. If two teams are tied in the dual state district team standing, the team that won over the other team shall be the district champion.
3. If three or more teams are tied in the dual state district team standing, the following criteria will be used:
a. Begin with the tiebreaking criteria listed in V-E-1, use only the matches wrestled among the tied teams.
b. Begin with the first criteria among the tied teams, if you do not have a winner, only the teams tied with this criteria will advance on to the next criteria. (Example: Team A – penalized zero team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct; Team B – penalized zero team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct; Team C – penalized zero team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct; Team D – penalized one team point for unsportsmanlike conduct. Teams A, B, and C are all tied on criteria a. and will advance to criteria b. Team D drops out of the tiebreaking process.)
c. Anytime the tiebreaking criteria reduces the number of teams tied to two, the team that won over the other team shall be the district champion.
F. FORFEIT POLICY
1. If the first place finisher from a dual state district decides not to participate in the dual state tournament, they will not be allowed to enter regional tournament competition.
2. If the first place finisher from a dual state district intentionally violates the spirit of the sport of wrestling by sending a junior varsity team or a junior varsity/varsity team to the dual state tournament, the team or individual(s) will not be allowed to enter regional tournament competition.
3. Teams forfeiting a district dual will count a loss on their team record and a point against their team schedule. They will also forfeit the right to compete for the district championship. A team receiving a forfeit will count a win on their team record and a point against their team schedule.
G. AWARDS
1. Each dual district champion will receive a championship plaque.
2. The runner-up and championship teams of the Dual State Tournament will receive an appropriate trophy. The championship and runner-up coaches will receive a coach's achievement plaque.
H. FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS
The Activities Association will send all needed information to each dual state site. This information will include admission prices ($5.00 for adults and students), tickets, and complimentary pass regulations.

Here are how the districts stack up:
http://www.ossaa.com/partners/ossaa/sports/wrestling/dual_state_districts.pdf

You could do a dual grand state by making the State champions from each class into a dual team and have a duals tournament between State Champion dual teams.

I still am not convinced that the dual tournament would draw better than the Grand State. We have history to know that the Grand State drew well in this state but I don't see the dual format drawing much from outside the teams participating at the state level. I would be curious to hear how well the dual format draws from the general public in other states.

That sounds like a great event!!!

The reason that other states have such great success with the Dual State is because it comes before regionals so you always get the best teams with all of their kids. It won't work as well and achieve the objective otherwise. The pit fall is injuries prior to Traditional State. Grand State will never achieve the objective that you want it to because it comes after tradional state and you will never get all of the best kids which again will not achieve the objective. This is why the All Star match never achieves its objective which seems to be to prove which class is the best.

Unless KSHSAA moved things back a week, had classification regionals, had classification State, and did a combined State!!

I believe if a Grand State was KSHSAA sanctioned and the week following high school state you would get all the state placers to attend.

I agree with MR.Campbell it makes the most sense to me and it would be awesome to see the top 2 or even 4 from each weight class duke it out to be the best in Kansas

I also think you would not have a problem with the placers comeing back one more week to try to be the best in the whole state. not just their class