At the Tonganoxie novce tournament today one club had a three and a half star wrestler in a novice tournament. What was accomplished by this entry, other than tear down another young man? If we can't police ourselves, do we need mat police?

The only way to police this is if a tournament defines novice in its tournament flyer.
There is no offical definition of novice out there so no real way to inforce it.
I know we can all say well don't common sense play into it...
Well at the end of the day some people are lacking in that department.

i got some looks about my son today as well. i entered him in the open yesterday and got pinned both matches. he actually tried to run a couple moves today and one coach made a comment about that kid is actually running a certain move. what defines a novice. is a novice wrestler not supposed to be able to run a couple moves. isnt that what we teach in the practice room. this is my sons 2nd year wrestling. he did ok last season but never won by running moves. he wins most of his matches because he is very strong. i understand that if a kid may have wrestled for 3 or more years but if he doesnt know but one or 2 moves he is still kind of novice in my book. if the kid know how to go from one move to another then no he probably isnt novice anymore.

The young man I was talking about qualified for the district tournament but did not make weight. He then won the the Hard luck tournament of champions. His record on track was 17-5 with 15 pins. he is ranked in the top 29% by track wrestling. He also placed in several open tournaments. So with all this information you can make your determination( Is that a novice wrestler?).

From the flyer posted on this website:
Rules: KSHSAA as modified by USAWA Kansas Kids rules. Definition of a novice wrestler is
a first or second year wrestler who has not placed in more than 4 open tournaments, has not won
an open tournament, and has not won more than four novice tournaments.

Seems pretty straightforward. No more than two years of experience, no wins in open, less than four finishes in open or wins in novice. A talented novice probably won't stay a novice for long, or at least really shouldn't.

i would have to agree. probably isnt a novice wrestler. the rule on the 4 open tournaments doesnt seem like a good one if he wrestles 4 opens that have 4 kid round robins and he gets 4th place every time but i would agree if he wins an open probably isnt novice.

I hadn't even thought about that. Entering an open with a small bracket might mean a decent finish on paper even with no wins. Really it comes down to being honest about a kid's ability. I would have no problem letting a kid go novice for more than 2 years if there was no way s/he could wrestle strong enough to get good experience in an open. Even so, mine will have to go open next year if they want to keep on. It's the spirit of the rule.

we all have to come to the realization its not how they do now. all this wrestling is preperation for them before highschool. i just hope my 2 boys want to wrestle into highschool. i fight it every year with the other sport that they also like. i let them do both but one of these days they will have to decide. it would kill me if they choose not to wrestle but it will be they're choice and as long as they are doing whatever they are successful in and not out running the streets and doing drugs or other things i will be grateful of that.

The definition of a "novice wrestler" is always one of those touchy subjects. With no official definition established at the state level then it is up to the tournaments themselves and the integrity of the parents/clubs to define it.

As pointed out in other replies basing it on how a wrestler performs in an open tournament in the past may not always be the best indicator. Small tournaments, tournaments with round robins, ect all affect the outcome that may be achieved at a particular tournament.

Outside of a hard and fast years with a card even if there was a rule, policing it would be a logistical nightmare. Would it be the responsibility of each tournament to research and determine if the criteria set forth is met?

My son was entered, by mistake in a novice bracket one year. I begged and begged to get him moved into the open. With room in that bracket, but they still wouldn't move him.

I thought, shoot he is a bigger kid maybe he will get a couple of second year kids and it wouldn't be so bad.

Well he didn't he drew 3 pure novice kids. What do you do in that sitiuation? I had him go out take them down, make them work like in practice and do not pin them before the third.

My son did what I asked and gave all three wrestlers three periods of wrestling. I apologized to the other coaches as I explain what had happen and please don't hate me go talk to the tournament director.

I almost pulled him out completely, but that wasn't fair either. He weighed in, he got up early, he rode there and was going to have to sit their until I was done coaching other kids.

So I guess the point of this all is if there is a mess up and open kids get put in novice, first off hopefully parents/coaches are ethical enough to want to change to the open, tournament directors move the kids to the open if that is where they need to be. Entry mistakes happen, make it right when this is the case.

The Kansas Novice Championships held in February defines Novice in this way...FIRST Year Wrestlers ONLY.

Now that's not to say that you can't have a STUD first year wrestler that has gone to some Open tournaments prior to that and may have actually won and/or placed in an Open. It is for first year kids, period.

We went to the Derby Novice tourney two years ago. Nobody ever ask to see my son's card or never questioned anything. My son had started wrestling 3 months earlier so I felt good about it. His bracket was pretty evenly matched except for one kid who cleaned house. Pinning every kid quick, most in 30 seconds or less. I don't know his background, but he good, darn good.

Last year i questioned this topic very much last year because it was my sons and mine first year in wrestling and we were learning alot but he would always get beat by the same kid every tournament and this kid would always place first and this kid would do the same thing get kids down pretty fast with in the first round so i didn't understand how he was still novice this is my sons second year of wrestling and he is finally catching on and understanding it and getting what he needs to do so i am hoping he will do good in novice this year

its good for a 2nd year wrestler to wrestle both novice and open. if he is doing well in novice he needs to be pushed and attempt some of the opens. maybe the smaller venues to test his skills. if he does well there then try some of the bigger venues. if he is doing well no need to stay novice. i will do this to start the year to see where they are at and move them around depending on how they are doing.

My son's first year wrestling he started the season wrestling in 3 Oklahoma tournaments before the Kansas season kicked off. Lost every single match, but improved each time. once he hit the Kansas season, he placed in every tournament he wrestled in and we sent him to both Open and Novice tournaments after the Andover tournament where he pretty much just mopped up and ran moves on everyone we stopped going to Novice tournaments. I feel that the mat time he gained that year in doing that was very valuable and helped him "catch up" to the kids his age who had been wrestling since they were 4 or 5 years old.

Glad to hear someone say this. My kids have not done tremendous yet in novice (just started their second year and only wrestled 4 tournaments last year, nothing higher than 2nd in a 4-man bracket), but they are going to have to get their feet wet, even if it is as a D-ranking at an open. We'll wrestle open in Rossville (home meet) and maybe Manhattan. That may tell the tale if one or both decide to carry on. Of course, if one of them doesn't modify his attitude about losing, Rossville will be his last tourney of the year and he will have even more time to think about it.

They can't decide to carry on or not after only 4 or 5, or 45, tourneys. You have to keep them out, win lose or draw. It does NOT matter until they get to high school. Sure we all want our kids to win state championships in kids wrestling, but lots of kids are late bloomers, and will catch up to the other kids once they mature and the "light comes on".

Don't make me tell my Bradley Little story again, I don't want him to get a big head........

Never heard the story, sounds interesting.

He was a fish, like many kids are at some point, for many years, and is now one of the top wrestlers in the state. I would guess there were many times that either he or a parent was ready to throw in the towel, but thru hardwork and persistance, it finally clicked for him.

Gotta keep kids out.

Great conversation on this topic.

I did have a few coaches come up to me at the Tonganoxie tourney and tell me there were a few "ringers" in the mix. I really cant do much about this once the tournament is running, sure I can go kick a kid out, but what really needs to happen is the coach and team should not even try to enter that kid in the first place.

As the tournament director (and I think I speak for all tournament directors) we rely on the coaches and directors from other teams to send "Novice" wrestlers to our "Novice tournaments". I have always used the KSHSAA modified ruling as our description, but think that common sense should superceed this rule. I personally feel as though it is part of my job, as a responsible coach, to not allowing my wrestlers who do not belong in the novice division anymore to enter these tournaments. They are not going to get any better and they sure dont help the self esteem of the first year kids who are already a bit nervous and scared to be on the mat.

Overall I think our tournament went well and would like to thank all that attended.

James