i personally don't have a problem with mat time. when a kid lets one of our wrestlers up, it gives us more time to see "real time" moves. learning the sport of wrestling can not be restricted to the practice room only. just as it can not be restricted to one or two practice partners. you must learn from anyone, anywhere, anytime you can. i have told our kids that the only person that can change the outcome of a match is themselves. with that most of them get tired of being taken down, and learn to sprawl. in this case learn to eat a cross face and refuse to give up your post (elbow).

So the question I have is this: Let's say the ref calls nothing and instead of the defensive wrestler popping right up, he gets his shoulder dislocated, or broken collarbone and out the rest of the season? What would you all be calling for then? I'd bet everyone would be raking this guy over the coals for letting rough wrestling go and not calling it by the rules!

Once again: "RULE 7, SEC. 1, ART. 1: A slam is lifting and returning an opponent to the mat with unnecessary force. This infraction may be committed by a contestant in either the top or bottom position on the mat, as well as during a takedown. A slam shall be called without hesitation."

Shane, this reasoning has led many officials to only make the call once the wrestler is hurt. It happened at Eudora in a 215 match. Had the wrestler not been hurt, the call would have never been made.

Eric,

So are you saying this should have been called a slam or not? I'm confused.

Should we wait until a kid is hurt before we call it or should we (as the official did) call it before it gets out of hand?

I know officials make mistakes but the problem is none of them will admit to it. They circle their wagons and quote the rule book just like Koranda (btw, I have a few clips of you too! ). This would not have been whistled in Tulsa or any other out of state tournament I have attended so are we that much more soft in Kansas?? I know that many of you dissenters are doing so not because you really think it was a slam, you just like to disagree with me. I have grown weary of the good ole boy official system. It is time to call it like it is and the forum is a great place for the unidentifiable to put in their two cents for bad officials since KSHSAA won't evaluate them.

Ryne has performed the step through turk on many occasions and this was the first ever called a slam. If you think there was unnecessary force then you really are pussifying the sport. It is a contact/combat sport and there will be injuries from time to time. We want to train the wrestlers to repitiously perfect moves and high level of precision and force but now we are supposed to say (well, if the guy isn't very good you better limit your moves and pin him quickly with a "safe" move. Jeeze, lets just put flags on them and see who can yank them off the most during the six minutes! "Humane" and "Pet peeve" is this the PETA forum or I mean PETW forum or what? It was NOT a slam and should NOT have whistled. The wrestler was barely lifted from the mat and he was taken in control with force back to the mat but not unnecessary force. If you step on the varsity mat, strap it on and be ready. Injuries happen in perfectly legally executed moves just like they do on the football field. Next thing you know you fellow pussifiers will be asking them to ban the crash play at home plate or the breaking up of a double play.

You have been coaching how long? Maybe too long... I am just saying, you are going to criticize a wrestler for going out and using too wide of a variety of moves?? Coach Alley "Ok Jake or Zach or Alex, this guy sucks, do NOT cross face him or blast double him. Make sure that you do NOT whizzer into his shoulder too hard because he doesn't know how to counter that. Oh, I will bench your butt if you pick him up in the air and don't put him back down softly enough!" Give me a break.

All of you guys need to watch the defensive wrestler. He didn't wince, lay there, grab anything or cry, he wondered why the match was being stopped. He was thinking "OMG Ref, you are making me look like a puss! Lets wrestle!"

The wrestler was lucky his opponent got up! An uneccessary move could have cost a championship. Whether the move was legal or not, it was uneccessary. Did he not have the ability or technique to pin him when he had him on his back the first time? In the winners defense, he did the right thing after the penalty by not showing any emotion and just going to work for a quick fall.

Will, its obvious by more than just you that I've been coaching too long but if I quit, the only thing I'd be qualified to do is officiate. As far as what I tell my kids has nothing to do with eliminating or softening a move. My point is, he was wrestling in the first round of a tournament, what if the kid would have laid down. Its happened before to some of my wrestlers. What kind of comments would we have seen from you on here then? I didn't say the move was illegal or unsportsmanlike only unnecessary in that situation.

Now for the your other problem, "the good ole boy's". How can we remedy this group of guys who cover each others backs. Bottom line is we need more new officials. We need guys who know the rules and how to make correct calls. Get them to take the test and sign up. If we can get new officials who can make the right calls, the old guys will surprisingly just vanish away. If you have any prospects you might sign up I mean encourage them to sign up.

As I stated earlier, I disagree that this was a slam. At Eudora, the call was originally not considered a slam. As soon as the wrestler appeared hurt, the call was made. The point is, attempt to make the call on it's merit, not on it's effect.

seconded.

I'm not sure if this has been said yet on this thread. None of this is a personal issue with Craig Ewert. I believe Craig is a respected official. I think Will would join me in counting him as one of our good guys. Everybody misses a call. Learn and move forward!

And/or thinks somebody missed one!

When these interesting rule interpretations arise locally I like to pass them along to the officials who participate on the NFHS officials' website. That site is pretty much strictly a rules interpretation forum and since the participants are from all over the U.S. and no one has any personal bias or interest other than getting the call right, it is a pretty good resource for calm and rational discussion (usually).

Videos make it much easier to evaluate any given situation. I posted this video on the NFHS site this afternoon and so far the [/s]four[s] seven officials that viewed it and commented have concluded that a slam call was appropriate. I imagine that a few more officials will weigh in, but often if the call is pretty clear-cut you don't get as much discussion as when there is a disagreement of opinion. Anyone interested in why these officials believe it was a slam can view those opinions here:

http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=17

PS: If you think the officials on the national web site all stick up for one another, you can read through the posts and see that there are some very heated discussions, and disagreements, on calls. But none so far on this one.

Bob Ford
Official

If I would have posted it when a slam wasn't called the same four officials would have agreed that it wasn't a slam. There is a serious issue with being able to object to another official's call.

I showed my wife the video last night and she thought the official made the appropriate call. Why should I take any stock in what she thinks, she never wrestled competitively.

Well, her dad coached high school wrestling in Nebraska, then he contributed to starting junior high wrestling here in Lawrence way back. Both of her brothers wrestled, and her dad had her practice with her older brother at home so he could learn his moves. She was the wrestling manager in high school. Three of her sons wrestled (two still do). Her husband and his brother both wrestled. So, kind of like Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny, I will allow her testimony.

Besides, after twenty years of marriage, I have never known her to be wrong.

When I get time this week I will post links to the same move by the same wrestler in KS 4A competition not called a slam. Lee, why don't you just stay out of it if you are going to involve moms. The emasculation of the education system is already so far out of control why do you want to add to it by polling a mom. Perhaps all of her wrestling experience was in Kansas, I am just saying. The quote from the official after this match was "Ryne was way better than his opponent and should have known better." Show me that in a rule book? I have discussed introduction of the "Lee Girard" section to the rule book. See the "Question" post.

You would have to be a blind person not to have seen this one coming!

it was a very close call and everyone needs to see that. from what it looked like to me, it might have been a slam. not intentional of course by the better wrestler.. buut it did appear to me that his knee left the matt before his opponents back hit. the ref was right on top of them when it happened. unlike you cokeley, just saying.

Will,
Rarely will I address anyone in paticular when posting. However in this thread you claimed that you could post the same situation when the move was not called. You appear to make the claim that the post on the national forum is tainted and objectivity is being overlooked.

I would ask this: Is it possible that you are having trouble seeing the forest, for all the trees? With your personal interests involved, it might be difficult for you to be objective as well.

I see the situation this way. As an individual that appreciates a very physical match, I think it could have gone either way. I believe the call was made correctly, based on the way the rule is written. It probably should have been called. I wouldn't have liked it, and it could be considered ticky-tack, but correct none the less. As Ryne's coach, I would have been disappointed with the call. I probably would have asked for clarification, and maybe half-heartedly argued a bit. But in the end, I would feel lucky that my wrestler handled it appropriately (which Ryne did very well - you should be very proud) and that the other wrestler got up and continued to wrestle as opposed to taking a dive to pick up a cheap win.

It's not right to claim that everyone whom disagrees with your lack of objectivity is contibuting to the wussification of the sport, especially in Kansas. With Coach Shelton's (Valley Center) initive to train and encourage his team to become future referees, and the boys down at Kansas South (Oklahoma U.), and Coach Alley's influence on the wrestling mats of Kansas, (just to name a few of the many things in Kansas of which we can be proud)I think we are moving wrestling in this state in a positve direction.

I agree with Jason... It's a slam by the letter of the rule. HOWEVER, as a coach, I would have complained that it's wrestling and meant to be rough. Will's right, out of state that would not have been called. I disagree with those that say when you wrestle an inferior opponent you should just complete the move and get it over with. In my experience, sometimes you have to "break" an opponent to earn the pin, win etc... Some young "lesser" wrestlers are pretty darn tough and don't always give up their back that easily... Should you physically abuse and humilaite someone? No. But being physical and mean is part of the deal.

It's varsity, it's wrestling, strap it on or stay at home.

2 very good posts. Thanks guys.