After seeing the Kansas Cup results how would you grade the college programs of Kansas?
Take into consideration recruiting, developing, leading, coaching, and graduating the best student athletes.

1 104.5 Labette CC
Joe Renfro and the Labette Cardinals get an A+. A proven coach, system, and results that back them both up. The coach is passionate and develops champions. Every year they are right in the National title race. Keep it up!

2 82.5 Baker University
Jimmy May and the Baker Wildcats get an A. In just a few short years they are ranked 26th in NAIA. Undefeated in duals! They arguably have a better team than Fort Hays State this year. I see them getting better in the near future. Good Work!


3 77.5 Fort Hays State
Chas Thompson and the Fort Hays State Tigers get a C. They are passing. They had a sub-par showing at the Kansas Cup. They have four ranked wrestlers which isn’t horrible. They have nobody ranked in the top 4 though. They are ranked 19th in the country. Are they headed up or down next year? Will they place in the top three in the next 3 years at nationals? I don’t think so. Are they developing champion student athletes? Not yet. Have a killer showing at regional’s and nationals. I think this team could place in the 5-10 range this year.


4 29.0 Pratt CC
Pratt CC and Coach Carroll get a C
First year head coach needs to get it turned around. Fourth at the Kansas Cup, sounds ok but way behind the others. The Beavers have struggled this year. Lost athletes for various reasons etc., hopefully the year ends better and they crown multiple all-Americans. They are along ways from Hardware as a team right now.


5 26.0 Neosho County
Wayne Petterson and the Neosho Panthers get a D+. He has been there since 2005 and they have had no runs at the national title. Not enough All-Americans. I do like his assistant coach hire of Grayson this year. I think they will be improving but they need to start taking home hardware soon to avoid bad things.


6 17.5 Newman
Ryan Smith and the Newman Crusaders get a C-. They are need of some All-Americans this year. Where do you all see this program being in the next 1-3 years? Will they be competing for hardware and crowning national champions or will this school be ok with being the way it is? Rate the coach??? I don’t enough about him and his development of talent his gotten to say anything. I do think recruiting here might be a real tough challenge and Fort Hays would be easier to recruit stud Div. II talent to.

7 14.5 Colby CC
David Nordhues and CCC get a C. Lampe left him nothing and the college didn’t hire him in time to do much recruiting. They are scrappy and I think they will be vastly improved next year. It will be easier to rate him next year.

8 10.5 Northwest Technical College
Steve Lampe and the Mavericks get a D. He knew in the fall of last year that he would be coaching in Goodland and only signed 16 kids. Now there are only a few left and they have done terrible as a team this year. I think they will be much better next year but right now they might deserve an F.

Right now, we have on school crowning national champions and that Labette. I am glad we have programs being added but its winning at the highest levels that is exciting. I wish USA Wrestling Kansas would start a tax exemption fund to endow a Division I wrestling program someday. If they would put $15,000 a year in it and could raise another $55,000 a year through tax write-off donations, in ten years that would be close to a million by the time you added interest. When you have a start, it’s easier to bigger donations. Hope you enjoy the post.

As for NW Tech, do they have more then those 5 that were at the Kansas Cup? I believe it was stated last year Lampe boycotted the event anyway.

Odd stat that may relate to success of the top 4 teams at this event. 1-3 had full rosters. Pratt in 4th had 1 open. All the other teams had 2 or more.

There should have been 80 wrestlers total at this event, and everyone should have had nearly full rosters, instead 67 wrestlers were there, meaning Kansas Colleges were batting as a combined unit a whopping 83%...so just around a low B.

I did enjoy your post but you are a pretty tough grader. I do really agree with your assessment of the first two though. I think Coach Joe Renfro and the Labette CC program deserve an A+ and I also think Coach Jimmy May and the Baker University program deserve an A. I am not that knowledgeable of the other programs that I could be giving them grades but I think your first two definitely deserve your A grades. I do think that Fort Hays State has some potential individual All Americans and at least one potential national champion this year in Aldon Isenberg.

The main point of your post that I wanted to comment on was your suggestion of the Kansas D-1 endowment fund. I liked your idea of USA Wrestling Kansas starting a tax exemption endowment fund. I have been in support of some type of College Wrestling Endowment fund in Kansas for the last several years. I do think you need an organization like USAW-Kansas with some credibility to start it. I also like your idea of USA Wrestling Kansas donating $15,000 a year to it and then working to raise another $55,000 a year to it. I would actually like to see that $55,000 actually be more in the neighborhood of $100,000 a year or more. It would take some time and some strong fund raising efforts to develop it to that point, but the important thing would be getting it started. If it had been done for the last 30 to 40 years this could be a very large endowment fund by now. The wrestling community though needs to take charge of the situation and we can not depend on anyone else to help us. I do not believe we are going to get help from the government or the athletic departments of our current D-1 schools in Kansas to make good things happen for college wrestling in Kansas.

The only change to your suggestion that I would make is that I would not make it strictly a fund to endow a D-1 program in Kansas. I would devote at least 75% to 90% of it to funding each year the colleges in Kansas that currently have college wrestling programs. I would only earmark 10% to 25% of it each year for the purpose of building a fund for a potential D-1 program in Kansas. I really would not contribute much personally to a fund that was only there solely for establishing a D-1 Kansas college wrestling program. I would probably contribute a small amount each year to such a fund but I would contribute a larger amount to a fund that was like I described (75% to 90% for current college funding and the balance for a potential D-1 program in Kansas). Years ago I would have been more apt to contribute a larger amount to a Kansas D-I endowment fund but now I think it is more important for us to support these universities and community colleges in Kansas that already have wrestling programs. I would like to see them all thrive both as wrestling powers in their divisions and more even more as programs that encourage and develop excellent students who excel in their academic and career pursuits.

WinWin,
For your grading to have any 'real' weight, you need to divulge your experience and background. Otherwise, no matter how sincere you are, you are merely grading on the curve from the placement at that one event. From my personal experiences I believe nobody was lower than a B. Each program has chronic strengths and weaknesses... Budgets, location, size, years of development, staff and tradition. Each program also has acute strengths and weaknesses...ie: injuries, ailments, weight prob., eligibility issues, and peaking at the right time during season.

First, you need cash to buy a recruit's talent. Even then...recruiting talent is one thing...keeping it another. Getting the best out of your talent, another. Mix in taking your average guy to the next level (which is the real litmus test of a good coach) is another.
Anytime there is a coaching change sets the scenario for problems. Anytime, a new program starts it stumbles around for a bit. I think you were totally unfair, and I would hope that you think a bit before throwing rocks.
PS As for my qualifications? I had the pleasure of coaching 5 coaches (on the floor that day)...during a 30 yr. period at the college level.

The only complaint I have about this post is it is the Newman "Jets" not "Crusaders". As an alumni it is my duty to set this straight. As far as their grade....kind of generous. I don't think the administration is doing enough as a whole to get the team where they could be. My opinion.

Edit - Posting personal message without permission!


As for the endowment fund. Does anyone know how much each year USAWKS gives to the colleges programs? I am pretty sure they give more to FHSU and Newman than they do others (the Juco's for sure less). Is this public information? We all buy USA cards, pay fees, etc. And I am positive Juby takes care of the profits. I would like to know. I agree, USAWKS is the one to set up an endowment. Credibility is there with them.

My question, how much would you bet on FHSU or Newman placing in the top three in the next 2 years? Does anyone think they will place top 3 in the next two years? Lets hear it, too me these are the premier programs in a wrestling state. This is why I would want a separare endowment handled by USAWKS to be for a D I program only, so people who think like me can donate to a future Divsion I program!

Yes, someone does know. If you were to sign your name to this post I would answer your question. Without a signature this is not an official question. Without a signature one does not know if you actually buy a USA Wrestling card or are just another critic. What I will tell you is USAW Kansas provides equal funding to the four year college programs and fifty percent less to the two year college programs.

Should you be interested in reviewing the corporations tax return for the past fiscal year follow this link:
IRS Form 990

and the summary financial report for fiscal year ending August 31, 2010:
Summary Financial Report - 2009-2010

So everybody gets a B. We have 8 above average college programs in Kansas based on your thinking? I think being average when compared to the rest of colleges in your Divison means your not even Average. A grade for average is a (C, I did take varibles into consideration. I say your post resembles liberalistic thinking and that is from results of mediocracy. The everybody gets a ribbon is exactly what got our great country into the financial trouble its in now.

I think we have 6 college programs in Kansas that are under proforming and that the coaches at Neosho CC and NWKTC,should be on the hot seat right now. I think coaches FHSU AND NEWMAN are passing right now but need to step it up. We need someone to win a national title at FHSU to prove it can be done! They haven't had a D II champ if my mind serves me right. Just NAIA I think.

Someone else step up and grade the coaches! Quit being ok with below average results!

Grass roots effort.

Our goal should be to create opportuities for all these wrestlers to get a college degree (wrestling is their fraternity), be competitive nationally and keep our guys instate at all levels JUCO, NAIA, DI, DII AND DIII, we should try to get every kids club to raise $250 from a business or individuals in their community. Some larger communities and counties can raise more than others. I think we have around 200 clubs x $250 = $50,000 it would be a start for Kansas Colleges. Under an even formula each wrestling tram would get around $6,250. Change the GOAL to $1,000 per club and we have $200,000 for colleges. It would need to be an annual fund drive statewide. Each high school coach and team should also be involved and add the number of high school teams to the formula.

Win-win:

Now, I see you switched to grading the coaches and not the teams. For now, let us operate on your original premise ...programs.

See, I can tell you don't know what you are talking about. You are comparing different schools who range from Div. II to NJCAA and placing them on the same scale. They have different budgets, administrations, locations, school costs, school emphasis and a host of other variables.

And...I need to point out once again..You graded programs pretty much (by your own statement) based on one tournament...allowing credit for Baker because they were only in their second year but not cutting anybody else slack. After all, they got beat by a juco...handily I might add. That means they deserve an A? Why not an A+.
You took the generous liberty of misquoting me. (I said nobody should be ranked below a b.) Colby just got a new coach, NWTS just started a new program. Pratt has had 3 coaches in the past 5 years. Many at this tournament including LCC had some starters out. There were many scrappy bouts between a lot of talented individuals and often 1 or 2 pt. margins allowed entry into the placing rounds.

You are also naively saying that a Div. I school is the way to go. We had K State representing us back in the 70's and had you even been born....using your criteria you would certainly not have given them anything above a C...although they had a lot of credible talent in the lineup, and one of the best wrestlers to ever grace the mat at Okie St. To run a Division I program on a A level (by your standards). It gonna take several million dollars (and, a ladies sport to balance it out). Start saving now.
As for right now, we gotta go with what we have. I am proud that Kansas has 8 colleges. That is remarkable considering where we were down to 3 at one time. You need to support these programs verbally/financially and keep them healthy so one day you too have an in-state place to send your son. I would hope there comes a time when one of our big 3 starts a program. It will take a lot out outside pull and somebody important on the inside pushing.
As for coaches. Many schools (not just in Kansas) require their coaches to have a Master's degree and they have to teach. The school want numbers...which equates into cash flow into the school and as long as there is some wins....it is cool. Now, if you want to grade school philosophies or school emphasis. Have at it.

A teacher grades students because a)they know the pupil b) they have the knowledge and background to critique. Once again, let me ask you what in your background outside (of just an opinion) gives you the insight to evaluate?

CT

Nice Post by CT.

I like both sides of a good debate though, as long as stuff is based on factual criteria and not mere jargon. I am wondering what is the typical attendance at these colleges for duals? Also is there a list available to see who actually contributes specifically to wrestling at all of the Kansas schools? If you don't attend a meet, or don't contribute, then you shouldn't be allowed input I would think (although we do have freedom of speech, but heck even freedom of press is limited to an extent).

If want to go DI, why can't a school like Newman or FHSU which are DII across the board just go DI in wrestling and maybe a women's sport? Is that something you would be allowed to do? I am thinking like high schools sometimes may end up 3a in Football but then be 4a in wrestling. Thoughts?

The division that you are put in is determined by the amount of money that is budgeted to that program, in relation to other sports, and other schools. By division I mean DI DII etc..

"If want to go DI, why can't a school like Newman or FHSU which are DII across the board just go DI in wrestling and maybe a women's sport? Is that something you would be allowed to do? I am thinking like high schools sometimes may end up 3a in Football but then be 4a in wrestling. Thoughts?"
_________________________
Enlighten Me!

This is where Shawn Bunch went Edinboro, PA and they are NCAA Division II in most sports. Wrestling is Division I. I am not sure how it works. But Edinboro University, PA has a National Affiliation with NCAA Division II.
I could ask their athletic director - Bruce Baumgartner how the affiliation gets changed from DII to DI in only one sport. I believe their wrestling program is in a conference with other division I schools. For example Fort Hays wrestling might would have to join a different western conference or the midwest regional. I think one of the Dakota schools recently became Division I in wrestling.



Edinboro University, PA

Athletic Department Overview

National Affiliation
NCAA Division II

Conference
PSAC

Date Founded
1857

Enrollment
8,000

President
Dr. Jeremy D. Brown


Director of Athletics
Mr. Bruce Baumgartner

Sports Information Dir.
Mr. Bob Shreve
Mailing Address
Department of Athletics
McComb Fieldhouse
455 Scotland Road
Edinboro, PA 16444-0001

Phone
(814) 732-2776

FAX
Athletics: (814) 732-2190
SID: (814) 732- 2596

Sports Hotline
(814) 732-1837

National Affiliation
NCAA Division II

Conference
PSAC

Colors
Red and White

Nickname
Fighting Scots

Facilities
Football - Sox Harrison Stadium (6,000); Basketball, Volleyball, Wrestling - Basketball and Wrestling -- McComb Fieldhouse (3,500)

I love wrestling and have been to many JUCO,Division I,II,III national tournaments.

I graded programs against eachother and by the way they have been performing at national level based over the past few years. As far as new coaches, etc. I tried to take into consideratation that factor too. Coaches are the head of programs so I guess the grade reflects on them too a little. I judge established programs success at the end of the year by the way you finish at nationals, the big show (indivdual finalist is whats exciting at nationals), watching the finals is the finishing touch on a great weekend. Its what forums, newspapers, ESPN, fans etc. love.

If budget is an issue, Then I guess you should still have a real title contender or two each year after you have been a program for a few years. Budget is always an issue but LCC,Lindenwood,UNK,and Edinboro find a way to compete in the top 10 quite often while having national finalist.

Its a touchy subject but fun to talk about. Maybe a endowment fund will come from this.

Wouldn't FHSU or Newman apply for Divison I status if they had a 5 million endowment fund? I encourage USAWKS to set one up now, strictly for a future Division I program in Kansas soon.

If a school still gave there normal help of a few full rides etc. The interest would be enough to have decent Division I budget.

I will say this for a bold statement. No doubt would Kansas be way more successful at developing K-12 talent/college talent/Olympic talent with one Divison I school than with all the other schools combined. I am glad we have collegiate wrestling opportunities.

My question is who grows up wanting to wrestle anything but Division I in college? Every youngster either wants to win the Olympics or Wrestle for a Divsion I perennial power. My original direction of the the topic has now shifted (due to above reasons)to encouraging USAWKS to start the Divsion I, tax exempt future Divsion I program fund. Start it and see what happens!

birdone,

It is just an opinion, know the pupil well enough. That is what messages boards can be used for, Expressing opinions. I think its fun to talk about.

I like this statement: "As for coaches. Many schools (not just in Kansas) require their coaches to have a Master's degree and they have to teach. The school want numbers...which equates into cash flow into the school and as long as there is some wins....it is cool. Now, if you want to grade school philosophies or school emphasis. Have at it."

I hate how the college administations use wrestling for a money maker only. It not about the kids, its not about winning for any wresting program in Kansas except for Labette, its about money.

And if that's true, it would make college wrestling different than... football? basketball?

Colleges are a business too. If they're a good college, I think they hire a coach that cares about the kids, the coach builds a strong program, and that brings in money.

Kids get to wrestle, colleges stay open, everyone's happy. No?

No, not everyone is happy! The team, coach, fans, administration, and individuals should all be pretty upset they aren't champions and need to work harder. That is Kansas's Problem. Only Labette cares alot about winning, they out work any school in kansas from a Coaching, Administrative, and training point of view.

I guess, that's why the majority of our great talent leaves the state! You hit the nail on the head. You all are a bunch of pussies with the "as long as everybodies happy" attitude, we did are best, we are buidling a top notch program here and next year we look to build on this years success. Kansas has one great program and that in LABETTE! The others are all far below average. We have hardly any Division I Highschool and college coaches. Why is this?

Sometimes I want jump through this computer and b++++ slap you liberal babies until you understand winning in life isn't about being part of something, its about being SOMETHING SPECIAL!

winwin:

Enough is enough! You have made your point and when you begin referring to "all are a bunch of pussies" without identifying yourself the topic is closed.