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Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ #221010 10/09/13 09:16 PM
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smokeycabin Offline OP
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FYI to Officials, Coaches and Wrestlers

• Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏


National Wrestling Coaches Association - President
NWOA Contact Info -
M. Pat McCormick - President
4 Waters Edge
Poquoson, VA 23662
Email: PAT.MCCORMICK@hamptonu.edu
757-868-1253

Pat,

Is this move used by Michael Pixley legal? Look at the video 21-31 seconds in the video. I am seeing it more and more used and not called as illegal. I have seen high school kids go unconscious from the hold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shOirW1FIcs

Junior 182 - Michael Pixley (Missouri) vs. Riley Lefever (Indiana)

Sean McCarthy


“In college wrestling this is illegal. It is clearly a choke hold.”
National Wrestling Coaches Association - President
NWOA Contact Info -
M. Pat McCormick - President

Last edited by smokeycabin; 10/09/13 09:17 PM.
Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: smokeycabin] #221013 10/09/13 11:07 PM
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Beeson Offline
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Clearly a choke hold. My question would be, is this legal in Freestyle or did the official just miss it? WOW

Last edited by Beeson; 10/09/13 11:07 PM.

Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: Beeson] #221014 10/10/13 12:38 AM
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Ed Wilson Offline
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Pixley used this against Eck in the finals at Basehor last year and it wasn't called there either, its his go to move.

Here is the link to last years discussion about it.

http://www.usawks.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=211521&page=1


Did you see that Eckenbacherswartzendruber?

Lawrence Elite Wrestling Club
Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: Ed Wilson] #221015 10/10/13 01:28 AM
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Beeson Offline
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I would hope that this move will be watched more closely this year especially with the team that feels it is legal. It is not hard to be a dominating wrestler when your opponents lose consciousness and is unable to wrestle.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: Beeson] #221016 10/10/13 10:52 AM
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smokeycabin Offline OP
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It is the officials and coaches job to educate each other on these situations/positions. Pretty sure it is not legal in freestyle and greco. However, it is legal in MMA.

Last edited by smokeycabin; 10/10/13 10:53 AM.
Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: smokeycabin] #221019 10/10/13 12:11 PM
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Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: Travis Phippen] #221021 10/10/13 01:05 PM
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Seems to me that it is a 3/4 nelson. The placement of the lock is what makes it an illegal move? In wrestling the lock must be placed on top of the neck? And also I believe FILA would consider it an illegal move because of the placement of the lock?

Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: Hull DWC] #221026 10/10/13 04:30 PM
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smokeycabin Offline OP
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"Brabo Choke" is very similar "D'Arce". Brabo is a North & South (69) Choke and "D'Arce" is more of a 90? Side Mount Choke. I'll post that Set-Up in a few.

"Whizzer" is an Over Hook pulling on the bicep from outside of the arm to create an openning.

Using that same direction, instead of pulling on the arm, spear your arm through with palm up so that your hand bites down and anchors on the back of your opponent's neck so that your hand is already in place when your other arm comes over to push opponent's head in with the back your elbow to lock and sinch in a full figure four for the choke.

Demonstration of Darst choke video
Rener Gracie demonstrates the D'Arce choke Brendan Schaub used to put Matt Mitrione to sleep
http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/9/22/475...aub-used-to-put

By: Joe Camacho on Monday, January 29, 2007
http://www.lockflow.com/grappling-technique/darce-choke
Darce by – Joe Camacho

Re: Darce/Brabo Choke not the same as a 3/4 Nelson‏ [Re: smokeycabin] #221028 10/10/13 04:37 PM
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D'Arce choke[edit]
The D'Arce choke, also known as the Brabo choke, is similar to the Anaconda choke. The difference is that the choking arm is thread under the near arm, in front of the opponent's neck, and on top of the far arm. The choke gets its name from Joe D'Arce, a third-degree Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt under Renzo Gracie. Though not the inventor of the choke, D'Arce performed this choke often and with great success in many Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling tournaments. During a sparring session with Jason Miller, the choke surprised Miller, who gave it the name and pronunciation "Darce" rather than the proper "D-Arsee," when D'Arce did not have a title for the technique.[citation needed]


Topic: Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling (Read 7010 times)
JarMan
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Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling
« on: April 17, 2011, 12:01:08 am »
________________________________________
With the popularity of MMA and jiu-jitsu I think we need some discussion about techniques that choke or strangle an opponent, even though the move would otherwise be legal.

From the high school rules under Rule 7, Section 1 Illegal Holds/Maneuvers: "holds/maneuvers putting pressure on the throat and/or carotid artery;" and "any hold/maneuver with pressure exerted over the opponent's mouth, nose, throat or neck that restricts breathing or circulation;".

[color:#CC0000]
From the freestyle/greco rules under Article 50 - General Prohibitions: "Wrestlers are forbidden to. . . kick, head-butt, strangle, push, apply holds that may endanger the opponent’s life or cause a fracture or dislocation of limbs, tread on the feet of the opponent or touch his face between the eyebrows and the line of the mouth".

And Article 53 - Illegal Holds: "holding the head or neck with two hands, as well as all situations and
positions of strangulation".

[/color]
The two most common times I see a "legal" move that strangles an opponent are with the front headlock and with the head and arm pinning combination. Both moves have the potential to choke an opponent unconscious. As an aside, the technically correct term to use here is "strangle" not "choke." A strangle compresses one or both carotid arteries which restricts flow to the brain and causes the person to pass out. A choke, on the other hand, compresses the trachea which restricts breathing and could also cause a person to black out. For all intents and purposes you will rarely, if ever, see a true choke that makes someone unconscious in wrestling, mma, or jiu-jitsu.

I think coaches and referees need to be aware of situations that have the potential to choke somebody out so that they can be stopped before hand. I was reffing at the state freestyle tournament when a kid was choked unconscious with a front headlock. I feel bad that I didn't recognize the situation and stop it sooner. Had I been paying better attention I could have averted what turned out to be an unfortunate confrontation.

As a bit of background, I've been training in brazilian jiu-jitsu for about the last five years. There are four times during those years where I have been choked unconscious. I have choked one person unconscious and have seen literally dozens of others get choked all the way out. In the following posts I will provide some videos of moves to look out for and some tell-tale signs of a person who is out or about to go out.

Logged



JarMan
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Re: Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 12:06:50 am »
________________________________________
In this video, Matt Hughes uses a simple front headlock to choke out Ricardo Almeida in UFC 117. The Schultz brothers were infamous for using this. Notice the pressure that Hughes puts against Almeida's upper left arm with his head. The reason is that this causes Almeida's shoulder to press against Almeida's own carotid artery. Hughes' left arm puts pressure against Almeida's other carotid artery. You only need pressure on one carotid artery to be effective but putting pressure on both makes the choke work much faster.

http://youtu.be/7p2fkuD42AI


« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 12:23:35 am by JarMan » Logged



JarMan
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Posts: 68


Re: Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 12:19:40 am »
________________________________________
In this next video you will see Ricky Lundell show a technique called an anaconda choke or gator roll. It is a variation on the front headlock/olympic roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FdIVnyUUE8

This move was used by Randy Couture to submit Mike Van Arsdale in UFC 54. Notice in the video how Ricky grabs his own left bicep with his right hand. I saw this particular hold get called illegal several times in college and high school this year. I have seen several wrestlers in Utah use this in freestlye and greco-roman but the head official I talked to about it has said not to call it illegal.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 12:27:15 am by JarMan » Logged



JarMan
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Posts: 68


Re: Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 12:37:52 am »
________________________________________
This next choke is yet another version of the front headlock, called the darce choke or brabo choke. (It can also be used off of a 3/4 nelson.) Here it is being used in some grappling competitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXdHYKWMkVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dksEVRmpMdg

This may look like the anaconda choke shown earlier but it is different. On the anaconda you grip the bicep on the same side as the trapped arm. For the darce you grip the bicep on the opposite side of the trapped arm. I haven't seen the darce used yet in wrestling. I suspect that this is because to do it effectively does not feel natural to wrestlers since a) you can easily end up on your own back doing this move, and b) it's not really effective for pinning or turning your opponent.

Here is professional fighter, Renato Sobral, showing this technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmvpZht_ao

Notice the gurgling sound made by his partner right before he went out. This is a very common sound made by people right before they pass out. We are taught at our academy that when we are applying a choke and we hear this sound to skeep squeezing and we will soon get a tap. If we are the one making the sound there is about a three second window or less to escape before you tap out or pass out. I have made this gurgling sound many times but usually either tap out or manage a last second escape.

In the match I reffed where the kid passed out, the kid getting choked was apparently making this sound. I didn't hear it though, but a ref on an adjacent mat did and was the one who alerted us that there was a problem. If I had been thinking about the possibility of a choke and had gotten down near ground level I might have heard it and stopped the match. The point is that if we think there may be a choke situation going on to listen for this sound and then immediately stop the match if you hear it.

Here is another video where you can clearly hear the gurgling sound made before going unconscious. The sound isn't made because there is something across the trachea because there really isn't. The pressure is on the carotid arteries. I don't know what causes the gurgling sound but it's unmistakeable once you know what it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feHKjX5PaCo


« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 01:03:47 am by JarMan » Logged



JarMan
Copper Medalist

Posts: 68


Re: Chokes (strangulations) in wrestling
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 01:27:45 am »
________________________________________
The most common time you see someone getting choked out in wrestling is from the head and arm pinning combination. Nowadays you will often see the kid on bottom actually tap out. With little kids you will often hear them say that they can't breathe. Are you one of those dads/coaches/refs who have ever said, "If you can talk you can breathe"? I know I am. But I've since learned that what those kids are experiencing is not suffocation, but strangulation. They feel themselves start to pass out and they panic. You can still talk even when you are getting strangled. In fact I've had to verbally submit from a choke hold several times because either my hands weren't in a position to tap or because I waited until the last possible moment to submit.

The technique in jiu-jitsu is called an arm triangle. In judo it is called kata gatame. Here's a video showing one version of the technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWu32GbjI0A

Here's a better video with some more details:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7cqGEvklGk

Notice how the person performing the move often grabs their own bicep to make the choke tighter just as in the anaconda and brabo chokes. An obvious sign of someone intentionally going for a choke whenever the head and arm are encircled is that they use this technique of grabbing their own bicep. But you don't have to grab your bicep to make it work. You can also use a standard "Gable" grip or butterfly grip that most wrestlers use all the time. Here's jiu-jitsu world champion robert Drysdale using a butterfly grip to finish the arm triangle in an mma fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YXd_W5GPj8

Another thing to look for is whether the person executing the move is intentionally pushing the arm across the throat. I know I was taught to do this as a kid. This makes a choke more likely to happen because it pushes the shoulder into the carotid artery. Remember, head and arm chokes are most effective if both carotids are restricted. . . one by the person's own shoulder and the other by the choking person's arm.

Now one last video showing former wrestler Clay Guida submit his opponent in the UFC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esAmW9v_NMg

You may be thinking that this isn't exactly the technique that you see wrestlers use. The truth is that you will rarely see a standard head and arm pinning combination used in jiu-jitsu or mma to submit an opponent. But the big difference is that in wrestling you are also trying to avoid being pinned. This sometimes has the effect of actually making the choke tighter because as you turn off of your back you turn into the choke which tightens it up. If you laid flat on your back and relaxed you would almost never get choked out from a wrestler's head and arm. . . but you would also be pinned.





Last edited by smokeycabin; 10/10/13 04:41 PM.

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