I know we always complain about officiating and how they are inconsistent, and all of that. But I would like to say there were two really good refs in Wichita on the 6A mats. I don't know their names, but one looked like the principal from Ferris Bueller's day off, and one looked like Al Borland, from Home Improvement. They were consistent, and let everyone wrestle. When there was a controversy, these guys would consult the other refs, (it was funny watching Al Borland Ref and another guy, they would squish their rather oversized bellies together). But on the same note, I have some complaining to do. The ref that was bald and had a beard and was really loud (looked like that guy that called Jerry a phony on Seinfeld) was a baaaad, baaaaad ref. He needs to realize that being a ref is about observing the match and staying out of the way. He always wants to make a stalling call at the end of the match, or something like that that could throw one match the other way. One way he threw the match to another kid was the 215 championship match between Carroll and Hemmerling. In the 1st period, Carroll tried to get his leg away from Hemmerling's unstoppable single, and he went out of bounds and was called for fleeing the mat. It was the only fleeing call I saw all tournament. That changed the whole match, because Carroll would have had the lead going into the 2nd...you never know. But hats off to Carroll, a great wrester, to Hemmerling, for winning your team the state title, and to Al Borland Ref and F.B. Day Off ref. And boo to you, Seinfeld ref. Your calls were phony. -

We had two at Hays that were real bad also,the rest seemed to let the kids wrestle,the other two were consitently giving stupid stalling calls and I even saw them award a point to a kid cause the kid he was wrestling cross faced him.I don't recall who the two kids were that were wrestling but I do believe it was the 145#.I watched these two ref's make bad calls all weekend and I have to say it is a shame that two refs would decide the outcome of a match instead of letting the kids decide.Other than these two I thought the others did a good job.

I agree let the kids decide the match not the officals. Finals were officiated well but the rest of the day it was stalling calls over and over and over. Let a guy set a move up just don't start giving points away and force people to make mistakes.

Did you notice when the officials were introduced at Hays they did not get a very warm reception. Two of them got a very modest lukewarm acceptance the others got less.

Yes I did notice that.I just know up until the final Championship match their were some consitent horrible calls,in paticular I have watched one ref for 2 years now make some horrendous calls that decide the out come of the match,and it is not fair to the kids who work their butts off all year and it is not fair to the sport of wrestling.Especially hard to watch at a state tournament,I feel for those kids who ended up on his mat.

Bingo...you just named the two I've been talking about.They decided way to many matches,it's state...let the kids win or lose the match.

I can't believe anyone is complaining about stalling calls. I was at Hays and have never seen so many 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, etc. matches. Some of them were because of good match-ups but most were because of neither wrestler trying to do anything. If one guy got a take down he would ride the rest of the period. The bottom guy would lay there and try to keep from giving up an arm. The heavy weight from Wakeney was the worst. I think he had one take-down the whole tournament. Every match would be a 1-1 tie and go overtime. I think he went double OT twice at 1-1.

Well believe it, there were refs giving out stalling calls far too often. I watched a 189# match on Friday and in the first 30 seconds he called stalling, then wham he gives another one about 20-30 seconds later. The thing I can't believe is the kid he was calling them on was methodical about setting up his shots and not just diving in to make the offical happy. In the finals he was never called for stalling using the same technique and won the match with takedowns.

I think we are talking about two different things. I agree about the call from the neutral position. What I am tired of is seeing the top man do nothing in the referee's position. They just ride and never get their knee out of the hole.

These referees at the regional and state tournaments are not there just because their schedule was open that weekend. They have all passed the rules test, attended the rules meeting and two area supervisors meetings, and have been recommended by schools they have officiated for, area officials supervisors, and league commissioners. In other words, these guys are the cream of the crop. I was at the 321A tourn. in Hays, and I feel that they ALL did a great job. I will tell you what I tell everyone else that complains about wrestling officials: If you honestly feel that you could do a better job, then do it! Anyone can be an official. All you have to do is sign up, pay the fees, take the test, attend all three meetings, contact school and league personnel, and officiate some duals and tournaments. After you've done that for a few years, all you need to do is officiate well enough to impress your supervisor, A.D.'s, and league commissioners (without soliciting recommendations from them). Easy enough, right? I've never officiated a state tournament, but I can't imagine the pressure that these men are under.

With that said, let me get specific. Haag (not Heg) and Fredrickson are two of the best that I've seen. These guys have both been there before, and if I'm not mistaken Haag is or was an NCAA offical. You don't get there by doing a poor job. What most fans don't realize is that wrestling officiating is way tougher than any other sport, because much of the match is called using your judgement. The rules aren't exactly cut and dried. Much of the scoring is based on control, and sometimes control is very hard to determine. Stalling is always controversial, but it has to be called when one or both wrestlers are not working to better their position. The wrestlers know that by the time they get to state, they better go hard for 6 minutes. Fleeing the mat has been in the rules book for years, but Kansas officials were given a reminder this year to call it more consistently. The coaches were at this meeting too, so they should have prepared their wrestlers for a stricter use of this rule. These two rules are designed to give the aggressive wrestler the edge against someone who never works to improve their position, or goes for the edge of the mat when they get in trouble, thus providing for a more exciting, action-packed match.

You can say what you want about the officials, but their perspective on the mat is much different than what you have in the stands. If you would like to be a wrestling official, please go to the KSHSAA web site to find out how to become one. We really could use a few more people with wrestling experience out there on the mat. Congratulations to all the officials at the state tourn. in Hays. I'm proud to be associated with you guys, and I hope to be working with you in Hays sometime in the future.
P.S. I was NOT an official at this tourney, just a spectator. Sorry if I mislead any of you.

Brett Waggoner
KSHSAA Wr. Off. #9734
(and a life-long wrestling fan, too)

so I guess what you are saying that just because they are a ref that means that every call they make is the right one and they don't make mistakes and all the people who witnessed the bad calls are just plain seeing things?I understand that the refs have a hard job out there and for the most part they get it right,however I will defend the kids who worked their tails off to get to state to have their hard work in the hands of a stupid stalling call in the final seconds of a match that decided the match...it's state let the kids wrestle.I have various weights and matches on tape and I can show you a tape with a match where the kid that was the aggressor through the whole match got called for stalling beccause he was on top trying to hold his guy down and put in his move while the kid on bottom did absoultely nothing except flee for the out of bounds,the kid on top trying to do something got the call,what was he to do,let him up?And like you said,their supposed to call for fleeing,so why didn't they?The kid on the bottom never tried to do anything and was warned in the first period,he continued to do nothing except head for out of bounds if he couldn't get loose.Replays don't lie about what happened,some of these kids really got the short end of these so called stalling calls,and that I can prove.I understand the refs may be under pressure at state all the better to make sure before they call these stalling calls that they are truly doing the right thing and not deciding the match in the final seconds,overtime will come up with a winner.And it wasn't just one match,I saw calls like this happen way to often,for instance I saw one of the refs warn both kids early on in the first period,he immediately gave a point to one of the kids but never the other one and once again it went to the kid that was trying to set up a shot,the kid that was just trying to defend never got one,if their going to call stalling they at least need to be consitent about their calls,call it both ways.And I thank all of the people who work so hard to make state a success,but critism can only bring about positive change and i am all for that in the sport of wrestling.

Hey just so you know the Wakeeney heavy weight had 8 take downs this weekend not one. and he might stall alot but he also wins alot. on one good knee as a matter of fact. with his opponets doing nothing but riding his bad knee as hard as they can. so he does his best. so wrestler dad you can just lay off of him. your probally just pissed cause he beat your son

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kansas wrestling:
"so I guess what you are saying that just because they are a ref that means that every call they make is the right one and they don't make mistakes and all the people who witnessed the bad calls are just plain seeing things?I understand that the refs have a hard job out there and for the most part they get it right"

That is not even close to what I am saying. I don't know, nor will I ever meet a "pefect official". It is impossible to get absolutley every call right, and for every person that is pleased with your call, there is someone on the other side of the mat that will disagree. The only reason that I post replies on subjects like this is because I want to educate fans, wrestlers, and coaches on the rules and their applications. When someone attacks an official, I feel that someone should be the voice of reason. These officials who were named in a previous post (which was removed later) did a great job. That's my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, too. However, these officials are prohibited from defending themselves, according to the KSHSAA Officials' Code of Ethics.

This is what it all boils down to:
What I am trying to say is that violations such as stalling and fleeing the mat are based on the JUDGEMENT of the official. As I stated before, your judgement may be different than his. That's wrestling. We,as officials, try our best to call all matches consistently. We are not out to "get" a certain wrestler, coach, or school. So please, don't attack these officials personally. They are the best we've got, and they should be commended, not insulted.

Thank you.

Most officials have done a great job but this year there seems to be a lot of complaints about some of them. These complaints seem to be about the same ones over and over again. If wrestlers, coaches, and parents have complaints/concerns about certain officials and their skills/ability to officiate matches, write in a complaint to the KSHSAA. Let them take action. If they get enough complaints, then maybe something will be done.

OK Brett I need some education. I understand stalling is a judgement call, What i would like to know as a fan why are there not, or maybe there are, a set of guidelines on stalling? It seems to me that one offical will call it one way the next another way? Now as fans we would always like to see points scored we just have to realise when you have two kids that are close not alot of points are going to be scored. Now you as an offical start awarding point to try to get the kids to score the only one that scores any points is the offical.
I guess what I'm tring to say here is I am seeing a troubling trend here. I have seen to many matches where a kid will score points only to have it tied up or lost because an offical will give stalling points. So you have one kid earning points and one being given points!
One other thing I found interesting at Hays last weekend was that stalling calls were pretty regular until the semis and the finals. (TV maybe?) just a thought.
Gotta Go
Lambo

The officials need to let the wrestlers decide who wins the match, this is the state tournament.The wrestlers didnt get there by stalling so i dont think the officials need to up their standards just because this is the state tourney. Many officials did a great job this weekend but the bottom line is there are always a few officials who decide the outcome of a match instead of the wrestlers.

Like I said I have a tape,which grossly shows poor judgement on stalling,that match was decided in the last 30 seconds and won by a stalling call...tell that to the kid that just lost it for trying to turn the kid on his back while the other kid just laid there.I didn't witness just one poor stalling call I witnessed several.

And I might add I saw for the first time a ref award a point to the other kid when the kid crossfaced?Whats up with that?Don't all wrestlers crossface?I believe this happened in a 145 match.If that is a judgement call I call that pretty poor.I'm not trying to insult anyone,I just think it's time we let the kids wrestle,especially at state the only way we come about change is to speak up.

Hey Malay,
Way to take it to wrestlingdad.
He's just another parent who's pissed cuz you kicked his son's butt.
Wiesner

Stalling needs to be called when it is obvious.
When it gets bad and I think we have all seen it at one time or another is when the ref just has to call or give away a point to make the match closer at the end. If the ref would not call the kid who is behind for the same thing then they should not call the one who is ahead for the same behavior either.