I saw in a recent KSHSAA bulletin that the association turned down both the Dual State proposal and suggestion that we allow a sixth match during a given day at tournaments.

I was just wondering what -- if anything -- anyone thought about that. Dual State has been debated up one side and down the other, so I don't know what more can be said about it. But the turn down of the sixth match disappointed me.

Each of the last three seasons, I have had kids miss out on the opportunity to wrestle for third because of the five-match restriction. I'm sure there are more out there.

And, there is another change I would love to see some input and movement on. I have long held the opinion that a schedule change is needed at the State tournaments. My suggestion is that instead of wrestling the first round of consolations Friday night, they should be moved to immediately after the first round Friday morning/afternoon.

I have always found it grossly unfair to kids who lose that first round match, then have to sit for 10-12 hours before they can wrestle again. And, that 10-12 hours includes having to wait to make weight. Why not let those first round consolation matches take place immediately following the first round? The great thing is that we could even move weigh-ins up to the afternoon and not make kids wait until 9:00 or 10:00 Friday night.

Just wondering what everyone thought

Disagree completely

Jeff,
About Dual State. . .in visiting with Rick Bowden this summer, he felt it did not need altering, it was a solid proposal and he didn't see the need for changes after all the work we've all done. He did recommend a different plan of attack, suggesting we have the proposal brought forth from the administrators association, which will give it more strength, combining the administrators and the coaches supporting it. We're compiling a list of administrators to contact about this, any names you have who would be helpful with this, forward those to me. Also, we plan on discussing everything once again in Salina in November at the coaches clinic, input is requested. At the Topeka coaches clinic, once again the coaches present were asked if it was still something we supported and if there were any concerns, etc. And again, nobody voiced any disapproval, only supportive comments and excitement about the event. The Wartburg (IA) coach who was present (Jim Miller) spoke up about the Iowa Dual State tournament, saying it was one of the best things the state ever did. He said it is well attended, an exciting event, and different teams would win than did the individual tournament. He also said it is interesting in that kids who placed 3rd, 4th, or 5th will turn around and beat the state champion or runner-up at the dual state.

As far as the sixth-match request, I do not know any details about what happened with that.

I agree with your idea about eliminating half of each bracket in the second round of the state tournament by doing consolations after the first round. It would speed things up, make the floor less congested, and let eliminated kids go ahead and eat and not hold their weight all day unnecessarily. I've heard quite a few coaches speak favorably about this idea. We will need to discuss this in Salina also to see if it is something the coaches support. Rick also saw no problems with this idead, he wanted to see overall coaches support before making this change.

If any coaches have any ideas in favor or against these (or other) ideas, we need to hear feedback, it is the only way we can put together our proposals that we (as a group) want to pursue better our sport in our state. If you can't attend the Salina clinic (I believe it is Nov. 1-2), then please email me (kharris@usd348.com) or KWCA President Richard Fergola (coachfergola@hotmail.com) with your input.

Best of luck to all wrestlers/coaches this year!

Regards,
Kit Harris
Baldwin HS
KWCA Vice President

I think its about time they award a fouth team trouphy at state. Every other sport does.

Actually, they don't give a trophy, just fourth-place medals to the team members

I didn't know that, but it is still reconized while in wrestling it not.

Hadn't thought about that, but that's a good point.

While I support any recognition any wrestlers or teams get, you better pick your fight carefully. They just might make the point wrestlers get six medals compared to 4 in BB. How many trophys and medals does track get, it is the best comparison.

Oh, I agree. After I thought about it, I realized that baseball, volleyball, basketball and other sports that play a team consolation game are the only ones that give away medals for fourth. But all individual team sports -- wrestling, track, swimming, etc. -- which give out place medals, don't bother.
No, this issue is certainly not worth the fight. That should be saved for fixing the State tourney schedule by wrestling the first round of consolations when they belong; immediately after the first round.

I think this concept is narrow minded thinking. Look at the bigger picture.
Can you explain the difference between the losers of the first round waiting until the third round and the losers of the second round waiting until the fourth round. I don't see any. I think the focus of most coaches is to concentrate on the front door and then concentrate on the backside.
I also think your idea doesn't consider parents very much. While many are able to take a day off of work and be their early on Friday, many can.t get away until friday afternoon. It is kind of nice for them to know their son will still be wrestling when they get there. I think the first round of wrestle backs fits nicely with the semi-finals. It is great to feature the semis on only two mats especially for the fans and coaches of those competing. Consider that often the best teams have many of their studs grouped in close weight classes ie.. Hoxie in 2002 112-135 and ACCHS in 2001 160-215. It is nice for the kids to have the head coach at matside in the semis, three mats would reduce this.
Just as important, it seems to me and I could be mistaken but somehow the focus on those backside rounds, should allow the kids to think about competing in their next match, not how soon they get to eat or how soon they get beat out so they can make the 7:30 basketball game. Even more once the team race is narrowed down to 5 or 6 teams those backside matches, even 1, 2, or 3 points at a time can have much more importance,
It was previously stated then they could weigh in in the afternoon, clearly they could not weigh until the weight class is done for the day.
It was also stated that half of them would be eliminated this way quickly, actually only half of the first round losers would be eliminated.
I know my opinion may be a little strong, but I think the concept hints at allowing people to quit competing earlier, which is obviously the wrong mind-set. I would hope they would still be focusing on wrestling during the saturday sessions. I also believe quick eliminations would reduce the overall crowd with some fans leaving early and others never coming. Let;s do what we can to create a great atmosphere with a crowd worthy of the state champioships.

I agree with fanatic completely, focus should be on wrestling and winning matches.I also think the state tourn.is an great experience for the kids and families,some kids have little chance of winning a match,but they've earned the right to be there.I see no point in rushing them out just being there is their reward for a season of hard work.I also agree the longer they're still in the longer their famalies are there,the more the merrier.jmo LETS WRESTLE

I never thought I'd actually get involved with one of these, but here goes.

Why is the idea of moving Friday's consolation round to right after the prelims so "narrow-minded?" The fact that Kansas only does one round of consolations on Friday is way different than most other states or levels. From the NCAAs on down to most other states follow EACH round with a consolation round. By Saturday morning, the ONLY people left are medalists, fighting for whatever medal.

From talking to some coaches I know, my understanding is that Friday night's round (under this proposal) will be held on just two mats, eliminating the "danger" of coaches being split between mats during the semis.

I also don't think you're being very fair to the kids who qualified for State that might be eliminated six hours earlier. I don't know a lot kids who will want to "make it back by 7:30 for the basketball game." From what I've seen at state tournaments, even if they're out, most kids want to stick around and watch they're teammates or other matches.

While I realize that to many of you starving and weightcutting is part of proving your manhood. It's not, though, and to make a kid wait 12 hours for the reasons stated is what is narrow-minded. My information tells me that the KWCA and KSHSAA supports this. Why not let them take care of it?

If you have a problem with your kids starving for twelve hours, then don.t make him starve. Put him in an appropriate weight class. Why would we cater to the losers, the winners are watching their weight all day too. Over the years we have done this several ways in KS and I like the way it is done now. I don't particularly care how IOWA does it. Clearly, your idea of having two rounds of consolations on friday would move the semis to saturday. Bad move. By the way I thought everyone at the state tourney on both days were fighting for a medal. If there are wrestlers going for any other reason, maybe they should not go. The reason the concept is narrow minded, is because you are thinking only of the first round wrestlers who don't control their weight very well, rather than the parents, winners, coaches, fans, or what is best for the excitement of the team race or the atmosphere of high school wrestlers.

I'm sorry mhill has decided to turn this into a weight-cutting debate, that's not what this is about. "Proving your manhood?" Where did that come from?

Fanatic, I respect your input and opinion, but as Kit Harris said, the matter of the schedule change has a lot of support among the coaches and the State and it sounds like it has a pretty good chance ot going through. Either way, your input is valuable; keep up the good work.

While Dual State has consistently shown overwhelming coach support the past two years, the sate schedule change idea has not actually been discussed yet as a proposal topic at a KWCA meeting. It was brought up last year after the KWCA proposals were set and will not come up until this year's Nov. 1-2 meeting in Salina. We'll have to wait and see if it is supported or not. I have heard a handful of coaches in favor of the idea, and have not heard anybody yet oppose, but that could change in Nov.

I personally like the idea. I'm yet to hear an argument that has made me change my stance, but that could change in Salina when all the coaches have a chance to hash out pros/cons. The one legitimate concern I have heard is that doing semis on three mats could make it difficult for some coaches to keep up with their kids in such a crucial round. I know coaches would hate to have a kid wrestle in a state semi-final without their head coach, but I also know that happens every year as we currently do it anyway.

I also am not in favor of closing down a mat to only two at state. I am all for speeding up the tourney and getting fans/kids out of the arena as early as possible, less mats means more time. I think we harm our sport by making fans sit for hours upon hours in gyms all winter. It's important to keep in mind many parents/fans aren't as gung-ho about wrestling as us coaches and die-hard fans. And wrestling needs all the fans we can get, even the ones that are not as "addicted" as many of us who have devoted a large part of our lives to the sport.

I can report on the state schedule change proposal after the Salina meeting to follow up. If supported it would go before KSHSAA in April for 2004 tourney.

Kit Harris
Baldwin HS