Okay, Mr Iom

Yes, you can lean it that way (towards scooby) to improve your position now. But I heard your explanation in person, and there is a couple inches difference in what you are now saying (and describing as well).

I don't hear scooby (or even you for that matter, that's why I posted) saying anything different than what I too would support.

I merely wanted to point out that you're now attempting good rhetoric and my disappointment.

Not that it matters...

i like to go out there and get physical with my opponents. sumtimes a bit to rough but. i like them to know i aint backin down

Unfortunatly I don't really have a lot of time to give every coach a nice detailed explaination out on the mat, while a match is going on, we've got to keep things going out there. However if anyone catches me on a break and has a question for me, I'm more than happy to help them out.

I like to go out and pretend like im physical and then my opponent realizes that I'm weak and I lose...

I just got back from the consolation matches at Wichita-- in two days of spectating, I saw a lot of good matches, some of them pretty rough. I would like to thank the official that reffed my son's match in the 4a 160 fifth place final, as his opponent, wrestling on the top position, attempted to take the arm directly back and then up against the shoulder socket, which would have been painful and expensive to repair. There was no reason to do that, the match was near the finish and the outcome decided, it was just a contempt gesture that fortunately didn't work out, but the fact is the intention was to injure, not score points or come from behind to win. My son is healthy because I was fortunate in that the official in the match knew the difference between hard rough wrestling and actions that would result in injury. I don't know who reffed that match, but I thank you. As for those who may think that intentionally injuring an opponent because you can't turn or pin him is justified, I would urge you to look at how that attitude affects the sport. Rough wrestling is great, just keep it clean.

Rough Wrestling??? I remember when I was wrestling in college during the Brands brothers hay days at Iowa. We used to call it "Brandsing" them. Just a full all out rough push 'em back and off the mat as much as possible. No cheap shots, just go go go and out conditioning them. I remember wrestling a guy from the Citadel that was the hardest for to wrestle because he always just went full speed ahead. I always caught him by being more relaxed though. Bottom line is that being aggressive and "rough" is a conditioning thing to me!

This is a great topic, seemingly lost. Last year at Reno, my son head snapped his opponent in a sprawl. I have always taught him that you post the head to the bottom of the mat. The official, from California cautioned him for unsportsmanlike conduct and told me and him that you couldn’t snap the head or be physical. I agree, some refs, especially on a kids level will not let the kids wrestle physical. Didn't say dirty, but physical.

This weekend I was surprised that I didn't see as many wrestling using cheap shots as I did at Regionals. I was pleased with that and maybe it was because the pressure was off or maybe because the rough houser were just getting beat.

We had a wrestler this weekend that was not able to compete because of rough housing and it cost him a good shot at placing as a freshman. He was injuried in a slam that was not called at regionals and that was my concern. Having a small program and having one of your two wrestlers not compete can really hurt a program. Special one that is about to get voted out.

I have my problems with kids just going out to hurt someone. I have my problems with officials that allow this type of conduct. But try to argue with an official and they won't agree anyway and it will cost you a team point. So I sat back and let it happen without one word of negetivity (spelling is bad I am sure). Was I the better man or was I the man that had no manhood to stand up for what I believe. Tough one here- Still bothering me a week later.

Sometimes what is seen as a "cheap shot" is due to lack of control when a "slam" happens. It is HOW you ask a question and HOW you approach a ref that determines whether or not a team point will be deducted. You have every right to question any call and you should do so without fear.

Technically Nurse, you're wrong.

A coach cannot go to the head table and ask about "judgement calls." Questioning a refs judgement is a warning to the coach. The next one he's out the door.

An official with cahonas will ding a coach for the infraction. Rarely does it happen. An official that dings a coach is just asking for it from the fans, coaches, and ADs.

I have a lot of respect for officials that will ding a coach for that behavior if the official is a good official on the mat and has good matside demeanor. I've been dinged for it and I have much more respect for the guy that says, "Coach, you know you are questioning my judgement and you can't do that. That's your warning." rather than the guy that is confrontational and yells at you.

As for dirty vs. nondirty - it's a fans perspective. The kids I worked with were physical.

Thank you Gibby-

It is true that a coach can not question a judgement call. Coaches are in a tough spot because you need to let the wrestlers and families know that you back them when they are on the mat and that you will take care of them if harm is done. But you can't question a judgement call. I understand the purpose of this but I don't like the fact that the official has to answer to no one in this case. Try telling a parent of a wrestler that is slammed and injuried that there was nothing you can do- they don't believe you.

Physical and rough are to different things in mind. Some wrestlers are out there to hurt others and these are rough wrestlers. Physical wrestlers stay within the rules

When a wrestler is injured from a "slam" and the injury time-out is taken, can a coach not express anything to the ref? And is a warning not worth expressing something? As far as out and out yelling, no. That was not what I meant. What about bending the ear of the official in a professional manner when the time arises post match? Am asking questions not making statements and perhaps it will help inform parents more about the limitations coaches have so we can be more understanding.

From the rules I read-

I can not question any judgement call that an official makes or I would get a warning and two of them I am done coaching. Youo never know the mood of the official and if he dings you with two immediately then you have not helped anyone. There were 5 officials watching the match and I figured if any of them had thought it was a slam they would have stood up for the wrestler but none of them did. Matter of fact not once has an official stood up for a wrestler over his counter part (official). It is understandable because you have to work together. That is why I would not make a good official. I have seen things from the coaching chair that if I was a ref watching I would have to turn in for the good of the sport. And therefore I would get black balled for sure*L*. Life is tough I tell you.

Don't want that happening Scooby. It's sad a kid got hurt. I hollered along with the rest of the crowd at 3-2-1A while a kid got his arm cranked in the finals and it looked like from the stands it was bad BUT it wasn't beyond the angle but gosh it sure looked like it hurt. Saw a kid head-slap another AFTER the match and there was some conferring going on about that one. Best wishes for next season Scooby. Keep up the good work.

Nurse,

It depends on your repore with the official. For example, if Mark Anderson is on the mat, I get a little bit more latitude because I know Mark personally. He'll tell me, "Gibson, shut up and sit down," humorously to let me know I'm toeing the line.

With other officials, I have to be much more careful. Sure, it should be called universally the same for everyone, but it's not. Officials are human and personality conflicts arise.

With those officials, I ask for clarification of a call. This is not questioning a judgement call (technically it is, but the way I word the question comes to mind).

Case in point, a takedown on the edge. If I don't think it was correct, I'll go to the table and ask for clarification.

"Both feet were in bounds?" yes coach
"And he had control before going out?" yes coach
"Are you sure?" (that's my jab at the call) yes coach. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do.

In essense, I did question his judgement, but I didn't. I asked for clarification, which is much different than going to the table and screaming, "they were out of bounds!"

The beauty is that I have not belittled the official and he now respects me because I was respectful to him. Then later on in the match or day, I get a call my way because I have built a good relationship with the official. He knows I know my stuff and that I will not be disrespectful.

I see a lot of calls go against a coach that's a hothead and they don't realize that they are screwing their wresters because their pride is much more important that "working the refs."

Thanks Gibby

Who were some of the "rough style" of wrestlers that you saw at state this year? I'm asking about the physical wrestlers, not cheapshots.

Wrestling is wrestling no matter what. If you are a brawler then you know what it takes to score and win. If you are someone who does not bang you have your ways of winning. If you want a good example come and watch a Labette dual and you will see physical wrestling. After all it did contribute to the winning of the NATIONAL TITLE!

Gibby,

you last post was about as close to the truth as I have ever seen on thse forums in the way you handled a judegement call that you didn't agree with. Although I personally find it somewhat of a waste of time because you are never gonna get a call reversed. I think coaches who handle it like this just want to get their point across that they are displeased with the call. From an officials standpoint I don't mind this kind of stuff.

Using the word "clarification" won't stop you from getting a misconduct warning if the official feels like giving one. It is the context of the conference thats important not always the wording. What I mean by this is, if a call is made on teh edge of the mat and a conference called, most of the time the coach doesn't agree with the call, if you ask about the call then you are basically disagreeing with it. In any case Gibby's example is a good way to get your point across to make yourself feel better and maybe the wrestler if he's listening in (so that he thinks his coach is fighting for him). And its a way to not get an official mad at you. I only wish this could be the case when somewhat close calls are made. Unfortunatly too many coaches just staight up blow their lid and say, "That wasn't a takedown" and so on and so forth.

Gibby is correct, give the official the respect even if in your mind he made a bad call, be cautious with your words and tone, and he will respect you as a coach, and you are more likely to get a lot more mileage out of that.