VS Coach:

I did not see you this past weekend at UNI-Dome.

What's UP?


I was so close but yet so far away.

Ned

Was going to come up, but wifey worked and Sage had stomach flu --- what fun!!!! Figured you'd be there and I blew it. Hope to see you soon!

VS Vikes

I think you are misreading criticism for bashing. Maybe it's because I'm holding you to the standards that I had set forth for myself and maybe my standards are too unrealistic. I've been at a school much larger than those you've attempted to turn around and also failed in my task. I guess that's what happens when you're in your early twenties, right out of college, and stars in your eyes. Now some people may say, "coach you were a success," but not in my eyes. I was fortunate to be at a place that had a gifted athlete who believed in me. Other wrestlers did improve, but not as rapidly as I would have liked.

My criticism was that I believed you are wrong in your assertation in the success at IMAC. Success is a purely subjective term. Your analogy of success is different than mine. I didn't intend to bash.

As for my editing prowess, I thought the Bulldog was a teen and was fooling with him. I had no idea that he had graduated from AC - oh my.

Note to self - send AC a PM about regretting what I said so he'll cross my name of in lipstick like that one guy from Billy Madison.

As far as the McJobs jabs - come on, those are funny. Do you really think people hang their hats in pride at being 30 and making drinks? Now the manager - he makes some jack. The others do not view this as a career. You don't see the cashiers being "long term employees."

When I was in college, I had the most glamourous job of all - septic tank installation and repair. Standing in a ditch filled with poop in August was all I needed for motivation. My backhoe operator use to joke with me and tell me I didn't have to go back to school - yeah right!

Gibby:

You're right; we probably do have different definitions of success.

Coach Shea rescued the program from the scrapheap in 1997 and by the time we joined forces a year later, success to us was not having everyone get pinned in a given night. We took kids with no background whatsoever and got them through the season alive. We had to set goals like not finishing last in tournaments or having more medalists than we did the year before.

At regionals in 1999, we did not have a wrestlers seeded higher than sixth; we got two guys to State and two others made the consolation semis. That was success for us. Overall, during the three years I was there after Coach Shea left, I felt as if we got better every year. Were we Ark City, Colby or Hoxie? Of course not, but we got better, we got people out and we had fun. For a program like Immaculata's that was success.

I would have loved to have had the numbers and success you had at Seaman. And I truly do think if I had stayed, we could have built something there. I will always regret going to Maur Hill and really wish I had stayed our last two years in Kansas at Imac.

As far as you bashing me -- no harm, no foul (at the sake of using a basketball term). And I'm a newspaper editor so self-editing is sort of habit. And also, you're right, you did have a CRAPPY job! LOL

But most importantly --- you want fries with that?

Take care Gibby!

... has this turned in to a lovefest?

Not for me.

Of course we would expect Coach Shea to defend his former coaching colleague. The comments regarding the lack of success at Immaculata likely struck a sensitive nerve.

For an Iowa high school wrestling coach who had very little success coaching high school wrestling in Kansas to come on this board and participate in criticisms of Kansas wrestling is, to quote Coach Shea, "boorish, ill-mannered, and simply ignorant".

My thoughts:

You're right Mr. Salyer, I am sensitive to discussions of success, coaching, and questions of integrity or personal character - not only those directed to me, but to those directed at my friends, peers or institutions of which I am a part.

One thing that I would suggest to all who may participate on this post, is that disagreement is not always 'bashing'. Adults can disagree, both with merit in their argument, without resorting to demeaning comments or adolescent trash talk. For instance this forum is rife with talk of take down vs riding, Grand State value, State Dual discussion, etc. Great. Opinions are similar to flatulence...they all smell and sound different.

Too many instances occur when one who disagrees is automatically labled a blasphemer and sent to the post. I can agree or disagree, but with a simple caveat that my discussion should at least be cogent, informed and civil.

Success is relative. Some measure it in medals, trophies, and national placers. Others measure it incrementally in terms of wrestlers meeting their own goals and abilities. Was Manhattan High at the same level 15 years ago before Coach Woodford arrived? Was Norton the same prior to Coach Johnson? Pick the school. ALL HAD TO START a tradition at a distinct point in time. Some more recently, others decades ago. The point is that at some point in time a dedicated individual came along and said "I wish to help" and was able to motivate students to participate. That same individual could have simply sat on the bleachers and muttered and railed against what 'should be'.

The one element that has been neglected (in this deviation from the original string on this post) is that Coach Holmes served when no one else would ... and for those 15 wrestlers he coached he gave of himself and bettered them.

What happened after he left was simply out of his control. That analogy would have us blame all the head coaches of univeristies who no longer carry the sport due to Title IX for the loss of the program.

Isn't the essence of coaching to give of oneself in and effort to better another. Medals, trophies, placers, etc....are all elements that OTHERS use to qualify the coaching experience, most of whom have neither the skill or motivation to do so. Success for any wrestler is shaking hands with your opponent before the match...anything after that is superflous to the true nature of the sport. Some achieve greatness. Others, such as a young man at Manhattan who has CP, achieve success every nite at practice when they run the drills with their peers. He achieved greatness when he also won a match. It wasn't in front of thousands at a State Venue. It wasn't at a national tournament or tracked closely by fans such as Mr. Salyer. It was a JV match in front of his parents and other team mates. So which is the greater success?

There exists a poem about two great combatants who are bloddied and bowed in the ring or sand pit (whatever), but resonates with the truth and that AT LEAST THEY WERE IN THE RING.

So, dear reader, there exists a school in need of a wrestling coach...are you QUALIFIED and READY to VOLUNTEER?

Coach Shea

Dear Coach Shea:

I do agree with the vast majority of your statement.

Last year at a local high school tournament I mentioned to the high school administration the possibility of presenting an award to a wrestler from a rival school participating in the tournament. I volunteered to pay for the award, however the administration agreed with the idea and the high school provided the award. This individual never won a high school match and competed with a severe physical handicap.

I was very proud of this young champion when he was suprised with an award prior to the championship round. I was also very happy to remain anonymous in the background.

Certainly, and I am sure you will agree, it is not I who feels the need to defend my position, and I do not resort to name calling, or referring to another who disagrees as ignorant.

I site an example of a coach who took over a failing program at Wichita Southeast High School and has made dramatic improvements, to include state qualifiers and placers, and improved the participation rate at a "basketball school", all in the last four(?) years.

I site another example of a former Wichita Public High School wrestling coach who started a new program at a small private school in Wichita and this year, in the fourth(?) year of the program, celebrated the schools first state champion at the 3-2-1A tournament.

When the Iowa coach reaches the level of success of Coach Woodford, Coach Johnson, Coach Jackson, Coach Gonzales, and numerous others, then his statement of criticism will have some merit.

Until that day comes, this coach will continue to spend countless hours on this talk forum attempting to defend his record.

LTC Coach Shea: As always my old friend, thank you.

Richard as for you, you're wrong about one thing: I'm not going to "...spend countless hours on this forum..." defending myself from you. I'm done with that.

See, the part you don't seem to get is that when you dump on me, you're also dumping on the kids that wrestled for me. I know you'll argue that point, but that's what you are doing. And while it might make you feel better it's pretty cheap.

You weren't there Richard and you didn't go through what Coach Shea and myself and my staff of Eric Stark and Danny Wright went through trying to build that program. And you weren't there the final year when Mike Connel tried his best to keep things afloat.

You were 150 miles away in a 4A program that had nothing to do with Leavenworth, the Kaw Valley League, the 3-2-1A class or the Immaculata wrestling program. To me, that makes your views on myself and the Immaculata program meaningless and unimportant. Perhaps you view yourself as final judge and jury, but I certainly don't, and neither do a lot of other people.

So Richard, rant on. Bash me all you like. I'll simply ignore you from now on. I don't need to compare myself with others to judge my own sense of value or self-worth. If that makes you feel better, have at it.

I'll still check in with the Kansas Forum to check in with friends and from time to time I'll voice an opinion. But Richard, I'm done with you. You're simply not worth the trouble.

Granted some of us have gotten a bit off topic but I don't recall too many threads that have had 189 posts. That being said, what about the original topic. Are Kansas coaches spending enough time working from their feet? Are they teaching enough sound, high-percentage, technique in the neutral position?

Randy the only point some of us are trying to make is, if Kansas coaches aren't doing a good enough job teaching neutral skills then the rest of the country must be doing the same or worse. As most of the knowledgeable fans know these successes at a national level aren't a one year occurance.

I guess my position is that the takedown is the key to winning wrestling matches. More precisely, the first takedown is critical.

We had a thread a few months ago about statistics and percentage of victories where the first takedown is scored. And the figure is somewhere around 85%. That is if you score the first takedown you will win 85% of your matches.

I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan and we (Kansas) have had some limited success at the National level. But why are those wrestlers successful? Obviously some coaches and some athletes do a good job on their feet. I have seen a few matches and my opinion is those that are successful at Southern Plains, U.S. Nationals, World Team Trials, etc. have been extremely sound on their feet.

I would love to see Kansas elevate its wrestling skills. Yes, we are knocking on the door but in order to step or barge through it, we need to elevate our wrestling.

Although there are a few exceptions, most all of our successful wrestlers compete in summer freestyle and Greco. Clearly the emphasis in those styles is on neutral skills. Many of our wrestlers are learning some technique from the likes of Coach Klemm, Coach Johnson, Coach Garcia, Coach Peterman, Coach Vest, Coach Riech, Coach Fergola, etc. And they are also learning from recent grads like Bunch, Spalding, Hermreck, Blanding, Metzler, Gable, etc. Is the Kansas coaching fraternity willing to learn?

A couple of years ago, I tried to get a Silver level clinic in Kansas. But due to a lack of interest it was dropped. Now we have an opportunity to attend a Coaches Clinic organized by Bob Gonzales and Bob Phillips. Are Kansas’s coaches going to take advantage of this fantastic opportunity? Are Kansas’s coaches going to elevate their knowledge level? The clinic will be about freestyle and Greco … that also helps with folkstyle.

I don’t agree with Guts method for motivating Kansas’s coaches but I find some credence in his message. Maybe its’ preaching to the choir. Most of the coaches that read our message board are teaching sound technique and emphasizing the same.

One of my concerns is coach’s education. I hope the Kansas coaches take advantage of the opportunity to further their education.

LancerM how are you gonna say that I talk about How Ark City used to be good as I recall they got second this year with a so so team what did your team get. and the year before is the only one I can think of they haven't placed in the top 4 so you can talk all the trash you want to, but I would like to know who you are and if your even any good.

Coach Hinderliter,

Well, you're much more eloquent and diplomatic than me. I understand why one wouldn't agree with my tactics but I think we share the same beliefs and a common objective. Through the years, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your reports from nationals and appreciate your contribution to KS wrestling. You seen a lot of KS wrestling and I think you know what the challenges are. You seen a lot of great KS coaches and wrestlers for sure, but you also see where we fall short. Thanks for weighing in on this topic.

No one on this thread, to my knowledge, has disputed the importance of wrestling in the neutral position.

If these great coaches aren't in the "coaching fraternity" who is? When gutwrench insults "Kansas coaches" these fine coaches are included because they are Kansas coaches. I think this is where most of the outrage toward gutwrench stems from.

Is every coach in Kansas great, probably not. Is every coach in Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey exceptional, probably not. Are most doing the best they can, probably the vast majority of them. And as our recent successes as a state continue to pile up, it looks like there are a lot of reasons to believe we are doing better than most. Do we have room to improve, of course. Are most of us working to improve, of course. But when gutwrench insults an entire group of men who selflessly give of themselves, it understandably creates a backlash.

Gutwrench, if you have so much wisdom to share, do it. I for one would love to be at that clinic and gain any knowledge a hall of famer like yourself could share, that is if you are a hall of famer. Until you are an active participant you will not see the change you want to see.

Sorry about the "lovefest" Randy, it did get kind of sappy for a second. Almost wanted to hug someone - something I tell my kids if I catch them doing after a match, I'll punch them in the face. I hate hugs after a match.

The problem is gut, you're firing up the wrong people. Those of us that are dedicated to the sport and know how to use the internet already do what you are harping is lacking in KS. So you're preaching to the choir.

You couldn't tell it through my posts, but I've become much more sedated in my approaches to coaching. It use to be that I would just scream, "who taught you that? Were they retarded?," but now I know to be nice. I have a couple of kids coming from schools that have coaches that have no business being in charge of a wrestling team. I have to ease up and say, "that's not bad, try this to make it better." If I were to do like I use to do, I'm pretty sure I'd have a couple of coaches in the room wanting a piece of me. Rest assured, I'm positive I can beat the snot out of them, but what's the point?

Such is the attitude of your posts. Berating those on your side is silly. The one's you're after pay no attention. It's like going to the Vatican with a sign that says "Premarital sex = bad." The cardinals will look at you and say, "no joke."

Want to "save" someone? Look to AC. I'm bored with constantly correcting his posts. AC wrestling is good, their academic acalades are not, and he wants to know your name (though he has yet to reveal his own).

I would like to offer a few observations and thoughts on this topic. This year I have seen more Kansas wrestlers tying up in the neutral position than in the past, I believe too much. I do accept the fact that we need to have our wrestlers work more on setting up shots on their feet. Do not take this wrong but the best I have seen at this, this year is little Trent Cox. I used to box and noticed that Trents’ foot work at one tournament was more like a boxer than a wrestler, he was setting up shots beautifully and was being very effective.

Now don't get this wrong, but Trent is not the fastest wrestler in the world, but if you ever want to see a technically brilliant wrestler, watch this soon to be 9th grader work. He does as good a job of setting up his shots as anyone I have seen wrestle this year, including high school wrestlers. I spoke to his dad, who also used to box, and asked him if Trent had been working boxing foot drills, and he affirmed to me that he had. There is benefit to cross training.

Now to riding time; I have had my son work on two specific rides, wrestlers wrestling him will have to figure out those rides. I have him working on two specific styles though to have him perfect, as much as possible, those two styles and then to be alternate between styles depending on the wrestler he is wrestling. I also have him working rides to work to a pinning combination, but in close situations at the end of periods, I have him working on riding to end the period, especially in close matches if he has the lead.

Now as to one of the weaknesses, I have observed this year more than anything else that I haven't noticed comment on; Hand Control. I think that some of us as coaches are getting a little lazy, on all levels in drill situations. I don't think any of us can stress the importance of drilling appropriately enough. We drill takedowns but don't complete the take down in the drill, we drill all types of situations but don't stress the importance of things like good referees positions, good stance, hand position, etc. I have noticed this especially with hand control. Now these are obviously generalizations and there are many who do stress each of these areas in a practice situation and work on developing complete wrestlers. These are just my observations that I have noticed many wrestlers getting beat with, not clearing the hand on a stand up, getting hand control while on the bottom, etc.

On a last note, I have had conversations with many at high school meets this year and even at the state meet where our wrestlers (all ages of Kansas wrestlers) are tying up more than they need to. I have noticed this to be true especially when observing wrestlers from other states wrestle. There is definitely a time to tie up but there are times not to. Frankly, I love it when a kid ties up with my son, especially if he is not as strong. At that point, I like to have Nathan show that wrestler the benefit of summer Greco Wrestling.

Three cheers for Brother Mike! I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. (Kinda scary isn’t it)

Who ever said, that "practice makes perfect" was absolutely wrong. Only perfect practice makes perfect! Too often coaches allow kids to get away with less than perfect technique. Can anything less than perfect win matches? Yes but will being less than perfect win matches against quality wrestlers? I seriously doubt this.

I believe there is a difference between drilling setups and drilling takedowns. I am a firm believer in positioning. Too often I see our wrestlers work to get their opponent into a position where they can attack ... only to be out of position themselves and not ready to penetrate. I think there’s a quote about opportunity and preparation equals luck but I don’t recall it exactly.

In wrestling, how important are our hands? The answer … they are critically important. I think a lack of hand control for the bottom wrestler is the single biggest flaw I see in wrestling. But how about controlling the hands in the neutral position? I don’t think many coaches teach “hand-control” while a wrestler is on his feet. Most wrestlers find it very difficult to wrestle without their hands! Thus is another area I think we "generally" don't preach enough and that is "hand fighting."

Gibby Gibby, this isn't a academic site is it you f** but I would like to know your weight and to see if you would be attending any tourny's this summer, write back we maybe able to work something out.

You're annoying. Tell us who you are or go away because, as is, you're just gutwrench1 without anything particularly intelligent to say or add to these forums.