I know this is brought up every year and I would like to state right off the bat that I am not trying to prove anything by this, just stating the facts.

Losing records in this years state tournament

3a 10
4a 5
5a 31
6a 30

The single weight class with the poorest records would have to be 5a 103 lbs. There are 6 losing records along with a losing record for a #1 seed. One record is 2-20 and another is 1-16. There are some good wrestlers in that weight class however.

Good God 2-20? Why even bother to make the trip?

We had a guy that went 2-5 a couple of years ago, yet qualified for state. He promptly went 2&bbq.

I can now say that I am proud to have wrestled in the 4a state tournament (with a 23-18 record).

Why even make the trip? Because some kids will never get to go to state and deserve it... if you have the priviledge of quailifying for state it is your responisibility to make the trip.

Lets first decide what is the meaning(conclusion) of so many that have winning records in 3a 4a. What I'm getting at is the "strength of schedule"in 3a 4a.
How can you conclude that 3a 4a are better wrestlers if nearly everyone has a good record?
Logically one could conclude that 3a 4a are worse because of the "weakness of schedule".

First of all, I'd like to say that I graduated from a 5A high school, so if I appear to be biased that is why. Keep in mind, though, this is only MY opinion.

I think it is consistently harder to place and qualify at 321A and 4A. However, if you look at the finals across the board it is relatively equal in each class. Is this the best possible system? Probably not. Will the system be changed any time soon? Highly unlikely.

I was an undefeated state champ my senior year, but if someone was to ask me if I was the best in the state at my weight I couldn't answer that. Why? Because both the 4A and 6A champions finished the season undefeated as well. It would have been interesting and exciting if the three of us would have been in the same bracket.

All we can do is continue to come up with situations that we think would work the best to make ourselves happy. Personally, I'd love to see a return of grand state. I won't lose sleep over any of these issues, but they do make a very fun and interesting debate most of the time.

Here again you and others have made a conclusion based on the same info(W/L records)that logically does not follow.


...consistently harder to place and qualify at a 3a 4a.

I'm not saying that 5a 6a is harder, they(all classes) are probably "about the same"


There is alot more info needed than just W/L
records to determine which class is harder.

See my previous post,amd then you can't conclude which class is harder.

You could by using which school obviously
a school(any class) that is the top 5 in the
state would be harder even to get on varsity.
These schools have a reputation, kids wrestling,
coaches, etc.

In a small town 4a 3a it is easier to get the word out about wrestling, kids and high school. You get a larger percentage of participation but smaller numbers when compred
to larger towns.

Just because a bracket in 3a 4a has almost all good W/L records doesn't mean that bracket is harder. You have to see who they have wrestled, thats the only way to conclude
how hard a particular bracket is.

Why would you tell someone to not even make the trip the state tourny,it is great experience and it will make you hungry for next year especially if you go 2 bbq or if you get one match from placing it is a privelage to get to parade out and wrestle in front of 10,000 people no matter who you are.

Our team is a 4a team and we wrestle many 5a and 6a teams through out the year. Just because your 4a doesn't mean that you can only wrestle 4a schools and so on and so forth. I know that I've only qualified for state once and that I have badly beaten many qualifiers at 5a and 6a. Does that mean 4a is tougher? well maybe in some weight classes. I'm really not for sure, I have never wrestled for a 5a or 6a school.

srlarson - your numbers argument doesnt hold too much water when a majority of your 321a & 4a regionals will be 2 day 16 man brackets and your 5a & 6a regional tourneys are 1 day and 8 man. Your best kids are tough no matter the size of school. But over the years the parody and more evenly seperated competition has come in the lower classifications. Be it that the bigger schools dont get the majority of its better atheletes to come out for wrestling might be a big part. It is not ripping on 5&6a it is just the facts...

If I understand you correctly then it shows why
it takes so many schools with fewer wrestlers om each team doesn't mean anything either.

To make too much of the W/L records is the wromg way to prove anything. You must look at and consider who they won or lost to.

If you mostly wrestled other small schools which
varies for each school. W/L records have been
distorted because of the schedule.

Maybe if you wait until after state then taking
top four then look at their schedules. If these
people went to rhe larger tournaments Newton,
Basehoor, Derby, etc. how did they do?

Maybe Mr. Salyer or Prant can do some number crunching but then you have to make conclusions
from just the numbers.

How many 4a 3a schools go to the larger
tournaments most go to small tournaments and duals thats why the individual records look so good. Even some of the 6a schools have weak schedules others are pretty tough. It all depends
on which indiduals each wrestled to create the W/l records you say makes 4a 3a tougher.

In the end you might be right but you can not conclude this with just the W/L records.

This is true only for that class regional.You can not conclude that this class regional is tougher than any other based on the info I've
seen so far.


quote-
Your best kids are tough no matter the size of school. But over the years the parody and more evenly seperated competition has come in the lower classifications.


If what you mean is that because there are so many wrestlers at 4a 3a regionals that alone makes the regional tougher you are right but only for that class that regional.

It doesn't follow that 3a 4a regionals are tougher than 5a 6a.

The facts are always right its the conclusion that will get you.


I keep thinking of different ways of saying this
I'm not sure if I can make myself understood.

5a and 6a supporters always have to think of different ways to make themselves understood. When the facts are so clear. Most 321a tourneys and 4a attended tourneys during the year are just as tough as any 6a tourneys accross the state, that is why you so many bigger schools are trying to get into these tourneys. I conclude, this is the reason that the percentages for winning records in 4a State were much better this year. (Because they wrestled a lot more 5a and 6a schools throughout the year.)

First of all I want to comment on Nigels post,...Why make the trip? Why not...its valuable memories and experiance! Say a freshman who had a rough year, peaks at the right time and qualifies for state,...so he goes and gets beat badly...but after that he decides to work harder than ever to get back to state and do well....by the time he is a senior you have a hell of a wrestler on your hands......Not everyone starts off like a Kriegbaum or Erisman....many work harder after they get a taste of competetion at state....not everyone has wrestled thier whole life and just then will get thier passion for the great sport of wrestling. So saying "why make the trip" is horrible for the sport of wrestling.

Always a good topic. How many 5A or 6A teams would like to go to the 4A regionals?

How many 4A teams would like to go to the 5A or 6A regionals?

How many teams would like to been at the Norton regional?

Different year. Same comments. With 5a and 6a qualifying 50% of their wrestlers and 4a qualifying 25% of theirs, it stands to reason that the overall records are going to be better in 4a. Better wrestlers overall? Does it matter? If you would combine 5a and 6a to give them the same number of wrestlers, they might be better than 4a since their schools have more wrestlers to choose from. Of course their are always exceptions. Left individually, the odds would always favor 4a since they have twice as many varsity wrestlers. Remember, wrestling is for our children to compete and enjoy in their growing years. It is not here for parents and coaches to complain or argue about. The more kids who can qualify for state the better.

Records can be highly deceptive. The Ark City kids are a great example. For years Ark City kids would come in with a pretty significant number of losses, yet walk away from state with some state champions and yet another team championship. Why? Because they wrestled an immensely tough schedule. I have told my kids (who wrestled) more than once, "if you have to choose between an Ark City kid who is 19-14 and another kid who is 28-3, pick the kid who is 28-3". Okay, its a bit of an exagerration - but not much.
Bottom line, Gary you are right. If a kid makes it to state - good for them. The more kids who can qualify for state the better.

Instead of focusing on what class may have a few of the weakest wrestlers at state I think a better
argument is who has the best wrestlers. I have yet to walk in to a tournament and look at a wall bracket and come to the conclusion that one weight class is weaker than another because one bracket has no losing records and another has two. I will make my decision on who I think are the best wrestlers in a bracket(especially a 16 man bracket). Since we have no grand state anymore the only post season tournament we have is nationals. The results for the last 2 years are as follows:

2002
Devin Schwartz 3rd (5A) 2nd at state
Jarod Vogel 3rd (5A)
Josh Carroll 4th (6A)
Blake Seilers 5th (5A)
Andrew Ubben 5th (123A)
Justin Dyer 6th (6A)
TJ Staab 7th (123A)
Doug Hoover 8th (5A)
Bryce Bahe 8th (4A)

2003
Tyler McCormick 8th (6A)