Response to Point #2:
As the KSHSAA is not adopting the NFHS weigh in rules or the NFHS weight management program, it really does not matter what the NFHS adopts.

Response to Point #1:
The KSHSAA rule that will be adopted in 06-07 will probably be very similar to what the KSHSAA is piloting, but may change slightly as problems arise and are addressed. I am sure the KSHSAA will try to iron out as many kinks in the system as possible, prior to adopting it state wide.

Thoughts:

1) 7% is a recognized 'healthy' standard for male athletes. 12% for female athletes. Is it 'sport specific'? No...but we are addressing a generalized group of athletes and not the top %10 (elite).

2) A pre-seaon body fat screen to establish an acceptable limit is no different than the initial weigh in/10% we now follow. My only issue, to relieve liability issues on the coach, is to maintain a similar 3 party agreement to drop below the 7% (doctor, parent, coach) with the medical professional establishing the set minimum.

3) Hydration testing, to be of any effect in moderating or mitigating unsafe practice, needs to be conducted on day of certification...i.e. on this date, when this competitive weight was reached, this athlete was not dehydrated.

Mr Mann:

You can contact local Army recruiters, etc and they should be able to provide information about the Army Master Physical Fitness School and the Army's weight control program.

As this is a pilot plan year, a suggestion would be to take the top X teams from each division and weigh them on day one of practice. The more teams the more samples.

Take age, sex and height. If the state can provide, measure each with biometric for body fat content. Take each athlete and get a composite measurement "taping" around the chest, neck and waist (different for females). Correlate to age, sex, and height to create specific body fat baseline.

Thanks again for discussion and your understanding.

Tim Shea

So you would be willing to go to the polls if you only had the choice of one party/candidate? If so, you would love living in some of these third world countries. I applaud someone with enough character to say we won't participate in something that is wrong regardless of the consequences.
I didn't know there were any regulations against FR/GR but rather just a period of time that coaches couldn't coach the kids in any style of wrestling. Again, it seems to me that the KSHSAA wants these kids participating in school sponsored activities first and foremost.
Also, has the KWCA been pushing for more coaching time? If not, why? I don't hear coaches complaining since the summer time ban was lifted. But maybe I'm only exposed to the reasonable ones.

Still sounds like a head ache to me.

sportsfan,

Again, bad analogy. a one party candidate in the sense you propose would be equvalent to only one person on the ballot.

Put an X by your choice:

( ) Rule adoption.

The current system is as follows, similar to the reappointment of judges:

( ) yes
( ) no.

A big difference.

It's best if we make informed posts before we jump to conclusions or make erroneous statements.

As for third world countries? Huh? This is not even comparable.

I'm guessing, if the national body wanted to really put the pressure on, they could bar outside state schools from coming to Kansas tournies and vice versa. So I conceed, the measure doesn't have much tooth, so to speak.

Side note, does anyone have a copy of know how to get a copy of the national minutes. I'm curious to see if we are the only state on the island, so to speak.

My point was, if you only have one choice [see adopt the national rules or not] and the proposed rules do not work for your state then it's the same as having one candidate. Don't follow the rules and you lose your voting rights! It's as simple as that and I believe well within my comprehension.

Nice try at misdirection to avoid answering the question. Where is the KWCA on this issue? What is their desire? If they don't agree with you does that make you or them wrong?
Another question, didn't USAW choose to NOT follow all of the new FILA rules this year? If so, does that make USAW or FILA wrong?

For what it is worth, the summary of the most recent KSHSAA weight loss committee meeting will be posted on the KSHSAA web site soon.

Again, the information from the first two meetings is contained in the March KSHSAA Activities Journal. (there have been three meetings this year and the next will notbe held until early September .

Total different can of worms in regards to FILA/USA wrestling.

FILA is the international rules and if you knew anything about the disparity, you would know a little about political maneuvering of the countries after USA dominance.

Use to be able to do multiple guts. USA kicked butt and then FILA changed the rule. Same with leg laces. I remember back in the day, locking up a leg lace and then doing cartwheels - 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, match....

Now that countries have caught up so to speak with USA's technique, reintroduce the multiple guts.

That is not what the National board is attempting to do.

(Swish).

Sportsfan states....

"Also, has the KWCA been pushing for more coaching time? If not, why? I don't hear coaches complaining since the summer time ban was lifted. But maybe I'm only exposed to the reasonable ones."

As an official position of the KWCA board they are interested in a Dual State, which may or may not be directly involved with "more coaching time." If at the end of the season, after state, then yes, they have been pushing for more coaching time. If the dual state were built within the confines of the season, then no.

As for complaints about the summer time ban being lifted, that again is a separate issue. I guess you have to be more knowledgable about the issues to comprehend. The question should be, would coaches like to see FS/GR listed as distinct styles, separate from folkstyle and should we allow coaches to participate in providing coaching outside of the two styles. I would gather from my circle of coaching counterparts that yes, they would like to see the state open it up.

Since KWCA is primarily focused on folkstyle and the implementation of changes instituted with the high school season, the dual state is their top priority (or was I think they've laid off the topic for the time being).

Coach twink,

I hope that they are more vigilant in adopting something other than the pilot program. It would make more sense as a protection of litigation.

I know I'm coming across as brash, but I'd like to see the state start looking at more leadership roles. We are consistently in the top 10 in the nation and part of being a leader is stepping up and leading. Being that I don't know if other states have followed suit with Kansas in the various issues, I question that leadership.

Glad to hear there are no politics involved at any associations other than FILA.

In your opinion we might note.

Again nice way to attempt to change the subject.

Isn't it handy for you that YOU consider them two seperate issues! I've noticed you consider it different each time you won't/can't answer a question.

I would hope so! After all, that is the sport they coach. Thank you for finally answering the question.
I say we go with what the majority of what KWCA agree is the priority.
I'm not a member of KWCA or a coach and the coaches I tend to find the most "knowledgeable" are the ones who haven't been fired from a teaching/coaching position for poor performance.


(owned)

Funny you should point out the KWCA's "sport they coach." You would probably know that there are other members as part of this organization other than high school wrestling coaches. A majority of the members are high school coaches as well as kids club coaches and get this - FS/GR coaches too.

(Duck/Dodge)

I find it intriguing you bring up my past as validation for your ignorance. I've always been very forward with my past and gee wiz, since you've brought it up, let's use your wit and smoothness against you.

Gibby's past - after spending three years at a high school as an assistant coach, he was asked to resign. Why? Because he stood up to the AD and said he was wrong and when you're not "tenured," that's a no-no. There was nothing in his records showing any problems other than a reprimand letter from the AD (which by the way was "missing" from his file when asked to see it...hmmmm.). Unbeknownst to the school board, he wrote his resignation letter and turned it in. The evening after the board read said letter, a few anonymous phone calls come from the board (a majority mind you) that explain if he wishes to have his job back, they would overstep the reccomendations of the administration. He says no, he doesn't want to work for an administration that doesn't want him around.

Here's the kicker - he does the same thing KSHSAA does, takes the high road and says nope, I won't work with those conditions.

Look, I don't need to defend myself from some dimwit that knows nothing of FILA, USA Wrestling, the situation KSHSAA has us under, or the extreme variances of body fat testing for that matter.

All you need to know is that when I stuck to my guns, so to speak, I knew it would put a riff between me and the AD and I didn't care because I knew I was right. For the record, I wasn't fired/asked to resign because of poor performance - it was because I was a threat to a turd AD.

(Napolean Dynamite slap).

idiot

.. 8, 9, 10 ... (deep breath) ... there, I feel better!

Gibby,

What would you suggest for the KSHSAA to adopt? As I see it this system makes sure that kids aren't cutting before the season so they can get within 10% of the weight they want to cut additional weight. The hydration test makes sure that the athlete hydrated when they weigh in the first time. This is a new safegaurd in place.

The body fat test ensures that athletes are not cutting weight they don't have to lose. In order to live 3-4% body fat is required (this fat composes the cell membranes and the fatty linings of the nerve cells called myelin sheaths (spelling?). 7% seems a reasonable number, and is the medical consensus. Many people may say they know someone with a body fat as low as the 3-4% required for life, or even lower. This is due to inaccuracy of the measurement techniques. Even the "Gold Standard" of fat testing, under water weighing, has a measurement error of around 3-4% (that number may not be exactly correct since it has been a few years since the Biophysical Foundations of Sports class we discussed this issue in). As all other measurement methods are based on the underwater weighing technique, the error inherrent in them increases. The 7% body fat is additional safegaurd #2.

Additional safegaurd #3: hydration testing for certification. This helps ensure the athletes can safely hold the weight they are wrestling.

I have just listed 3 safegaurds the KSHSAA is implementing to protect our athletes all of which will come at a minimum of a head ache for coaches, and will still allow wrestlers flexibility as opposed to the descent plan outlined by the NFHS.

What would you add to this, how would you implement it, and would it be more burdensome than it is worth to implement?

I'll be honest, I'd like to see the National rules in place.

Will they be cumbersome on coaches? I tend to believe they will, but not to the extent that coaches are just quitting because of it.

The problems I see with the pilot program:

1. As you've pointed out, there will be two tests, one at the beginning of the season (the same time as setting the baseline for the 10% weight reduction) and the other at certification.

2. The current proposal does nothing to stop the "yo-yo" weight issues. An athlete can cut his weight at the beginning of the season, wrestle up, and then get it back down (with the understanding he still meet the criteria proposed) and then go back to unhealthy practices. The intent of the rule (as I understand it) is to stop such unhealthy practices. This proposal from KSHSAA does not meet such standard. To hide under the guise of protection from litigation is wrong. True protection would be better suited by adopting the National rules. To believe that something is better than nothing because in this case, if a wrestler were to die (granted we have no deaths in Kansas ever) a easy case for the prosecution would be that there was a better method and the state decided to not follow it.

Quote from the NCAA article I posted.

"So what does all this mean? If a student-athlete's actual percent body fat was 15%, the methods used to estimate percent body fat could produce results ranging from 12% to 18% body fat for UWW; 8% to 22% for skinfold thickness; and 7% to 23% for BIA."

BIA is the electronic scale that measures body fat. Not many schools can do underwater testing , but it has a +/- of 3%. The tests we could use: skinfold with a +/- of 7%, and the cool electronic scale is at +/- 8%.

By my calling the states number an arbitrary number, that's exactly what I meant. It's a consensus by the medical profession, not a scientific fact.

Why is it arbitrary? Because it's so difficult to measure accurately (as shown by the large variances). The NCAA has adopted 5%. So the number is arbitrary.

Now of course you're looking at the post and saying, what does this all have to do with the two weigh-in checks. Quite a bit - as you know the smaller the sample, the higher the degree of variance, especially with such a high variance in the tools we will adopt.

The weekly check would smooth out the peaks/valleys of the inaccuracies and provide us a better description of the athlete's weight management.

With the Kansas model, we check twice, leaving a huge variance and if it's off, an opportunity to send the kids to the doctor to get a medical waver. That is not the intent of the National Federation and KSHSAA knows it. The intent is to better equip the coaches with tools to promote a healthy weight management program and rules to follow to help promote such management. KSHSAA's rule does not follow that program in the least.

This is not to say that our coaches are bad, in fact, I think they are supurb.

To throw out fear tactics, like LITIGATION, is a political hot button issue. Danger for kids = bad. What they fail to do is show how inferior their program is versus the program adopted by the institution they are a part of, but can't vote on the measure.

Regardless of how it is done, some sort of weight regulation needs to be done in high school. Kids aren't intelligent enough to listen to coaches (I used to be one) and think they can pull alot of weight in a day or two then suffer on Saturday's. I'm all for some sort of regulation on weight, its just the how that is frustrating..

Egg:
I have a question or two. First, do the new rules apply only to the pilot participants? I am assuming that schools that do not choose to take part in this procedure would be able to operate as they did last year. Is this true? I saw a lot of huge 103 and 112 pounders last year, I am thinking that those kids would have been out of compliance under the new rules. Perhaps that is as it should be, but it still seems to me that weight training and the discipline that applies to it should be an issue of personal decision. I am kinda a dinosaur in that regard, I have always felt that rules and laws specifically designed to protect people from themselves are a waste of time, but I suppose if you can get averyone to do it, maybe it will work-- just like prohibition and the 44% Kansas adult compliant seat belt laws. Several years back the Federal Highway Administration ADVISED that states should convert to the metric system. Kansas Highway geniuses, ever being on the cutting edge, adopted the concept immediatly, all contracts and measurements for construction became metric, at the cost of several million dollars to convert all the systems. Well, the next year the Feds decided that it relly was probably a bad decision, and about 5 states were metric, and the rest , the ones that had wisely opted to see if the new rules would be practical or workable, kept doing their work in standard english measurements. After a decade in denial, KDOT finally changed their system back to English,(one can only think at the same cost as before) and now they are able to compare projects with other states on a unit to unit basis. Maybe, instead of being the brave new pioneers of wrestling, KSHAA should see how the system works for other states. By the way, you can get a Tanita digital scale on Ebay from the Eastwest head shop for only 125 bucks, but it looks like you'd have to be realy little bitty tiny for it to weigh yourself on.

Gibby,

I for one am opposed to the descent plan proposed by the NFHS. I think it would be a nightmare to keep track of, and is too restrictive for our athletes. While I am not for yo-yo weight cutting, I think a 193 lb wrestler can safely lose more than 2.8 lbs in a week, and do it in a healthy manner to make 189. Apparently we are going to see differently on this issue.

As for your disdain for "arbitrary numbers", how about the 1.5% weight loss per week as an arbitrary number? Is there medical evidence or "just a consensus" that would be the best for highly trained high school athletes? I find it confusing that you are so opposed by the 7% body fat "arbitrary" number, but are all for us instituting (on top of the 7% body fat) another arbitrary number to control weight loss. Your position seems contradictory to me.

Greetings,

A couple of things.

1. Descent Plan--at this point this member of the committee is opposed to it because of the cumbersome record keeping it will require of our already burdened coaches and also because it could actually keep wrestlers from getting to their optimum weight. If an athlete loses more than 1.5% in a week he will probably have to be held out of competiton for that week. If he loses less than the 1.5% that means the next week he can only lose 1.5% of his previous weight from the week before and not the full amount to which he would normally be allowed. See the double bind this presents to the athletes? Those of us who have a weight problem and have lost weight over the years know a metabolism is a tricky thing to dial in!

Whether or not Kansas will adopt the full NF plan is yet to be decided.

2. It is also my understanding that the current Kansas Pilot Plan will match those of the NF, anyway they did what had been part of the past two years recommended rule ; that is the hydration and fat testing are the same between both plans. However, if being in the NF is not at issue we have the ability to set the hydration and fat levels where we want to.

3. Pilot schools will follow the rules in the 2005-06 Kansas Wrestling Handbook; they will however do the hydration testing and fat testing for purposes of data collection and also to see what kinds of issues need to be addressed, refinements made, etc. before it becomes the rule all live by--again, acbulldog notwithstanding! :-)

Again--take the time to contact a committee member and let them know if you think we should again be full NF members--if we are, then we adopt ALL the rules--weigh in and weight control--and this discussion revolves around how overbearing the NF is and not the KSHSAA!

Yours in wrestling.

Mann supt211@ruraletel.net

The body fat hydration test is currently used in the college ranks. Does anyone know how hard it is to be hydrated and not even have to cut weight. I would venture a gues that probabbly 60 to 75 percent of you are not hydrated if you were to be tested at this very instence. College wrestlers have found ways around the hydration tests for certification. It is just too hard to be hydrated and down to weight. I would be in favor of having just one test done before the season starts to determine how much weight a certain wrestler can use. I don't think it is fair to asks kids to be down to weight and hydrated for certifiaction. For those of you who disagree, take the hydration test for yourself. I witnessed a heavyweight in college have to take the hydration test 8 times before he got hydrated and he didn't cut any weight. The plan is good to determine how much weight a kid can lose but not practical for certifiaction.

I personally feel this may not be the best way to go to prevent excessive weight cutting, for two reasons:
Although I think the theory of being proactive is sound.
1. Who will be in charge of the urine? As a coach I hope my job description does not include handling 20-40 pee cups, I don't care if it's once a year or 30 times. Don't want to do it! We have enough trouble getting our guys to walk and chew gum at the same time let alone judge whether their pee is dark enough or not!

2. As someone with a back ground in exercise science (although I am not claiming to be an expert, simply remembering from previous classwork) I realize there are problems with body fat testing. As Gibby mentioned there are plus or minuses regardless of type of testing. Body fat tests of any type are an estimation. The only way to get an exact measure of body fat verses lean body mass is to grind up your body and measure the contents. All testing procedures use a complex formula based on height and weight which estimates things like bone density, muscle density, connective tissue, size and weight of an individuals organs. (These formulas were derived by actually grinding up a hand full of cadavers some years ago). Things like bone and muscle density are increased by weight training, or intense exercise, done by many wrestlers, and very greatly from person to person, especially someone who weighs 103lbs. vs. 250+ lbs. which can change or increase the innacurracy and error of the measurements. Body fat % cannot be measured exactly no matter what the choice of method. I have not even mentioned the subjectivity factor of each individual tester for either body fat or hydration.
I think this avenue will create more problems than it will solve. I am sure this will help recruit kids into the sport. Come try out for wrestling. By the way you get to get naked, weighed like cattle then pinched, proded and poked by people you don't know and then piss in a cup. After that we'll see if you're tough enough to handle practice. I'm sure that will help expand the sport. Choose your battles fellas.
Shannon Sawner
Assistant wrestling coach
Shawnee Heights