I heard about the HWT consolation semifinals debate. And was wondering what you guys might think of it. Personally I missed the whole tournament.

What region?

sorry, it was at the 321a Notron Regional

What all the controversy was about was one of the worst calls i have ever seen. To make things clear i have always liked as a ref and as a person, but after yesterday i guess i will just have to like him as a person because to me he lost any respect as a ref he ever had. Trego's HWT was down 1-0 with about 15 seconds left and Woody, the head ref of that match gave him 2 for a take down but then waved it off which probally was the right call, and then the trego HWT picked the kid up again by the edge of the mat and took him down in the center of the mat as and woody gave him 2 with about 4 seconds left, the kid layed there cause he knew he just lost, the WaKeeney crowd went crazy cause that was a Sr. who had been hurt all year and just made it to state, about the time we stop giving high fives and jumping around like idiots i see Rob Ross pull over and i got a sick feeling in my guy. Rob, the head Ref for the tournament but the assisant for that match, told steve that they had stepped out with 12 seconds left, altough steve was right there in great position and did not call it, but after about a minute steve changed the call and put 12 seconds back on the clock and took away the 2 points, even though he never blew the wistle and from his body expressions you could see he really didnt agree with what he was doing, The whole time has the kids in the middle and our kid never even got told he was down at that point and really did not know what was going on cause to him it was just obvious that he had won, so with 12 seconds back on the clock and tregos HWT can not get another take down and looses, as im describing this i really cant make it sound as bad as it really was. for to step in their and make a call as the assisant offical on the match was just as wrong as steve woody not to have enough guts to tell him that no, thats the way i called it and thats the way it will stay, after the match i talked to a couple coaches from other teams and they all said it was one of the worst calls they had ever seen, and these are very highly respected coaches who i wont name because i dont want to put their names out there unless they want to say something about it personally. Any ways that is how i saw it and i found no one who dissagreed with us in the whole gym, it was one of the craziest things i have ever seen on a wrestling mat and i hope some actions are taken acordingly to the whole deal, in the words of Forest Gump i guess thats i have to say about that.

Jason - I wasn't there so obviously can't comment on what I didn't see but let me ask this:

If the wrestler(s) had stepped out of bounds w/ 12 seconds to go and the assistant ref saw it but the head ref didn't then what would be the proper call?

In your opinion what is the role of the assistant ref? What is he supposed to be looking for?

In my opinion, the assistant refs job is to be their when the head ref is unsure of something, if the head ref wasnt sure if they wernt out of bounds and went to the assistant and asked him then it is the assistants refs job to tell him what he saw but the head ref still has total control in the decision, and Rob did not go in their arms waving trying to stop it, not a single person i talked even saw rob try to signal the kid out of bounds, not saying it didnt happen but no one saw him trying to say anything till after the match was over, so in my opinion the assistant ref should be standing at a diffrent angle from the head ref and should be their to offer his opinion if the head ref is unsure, but woody never asked for help and altough this is pure speculation i think rob pressured him into making that call, you could tell how bad woody felt about it as he walked by it, he had a look on his face like i screwed you and i know it and im sorry i just couldnt hold my own ground. its really sad to me because i have always liked woody alot, still do as a person just cant ever see myself having any respect for him as a ref again.

In my opinion, the assistant refs job is to be their when the head ref is unsure of something, if the head ref wasnt sure if they wernt out of bounds and went to the assistant and asked him then it is the assistants refs job to tell him what he saw but the head ref still has total control in the decision, and Rob did not go in their arms waving trying to stop it, not a single person i talked even saw rob try to signal the kid out of bounds, not saying it didnt happen but no one saw him trying to say anything till after the match was over, so in my opinion the assistant ref should be standing at a diffrent angle from the head ref and should be their to offer his opinion if the head ref is unsure, but woody never asked for help and altough this is pure speculation i think rob pressured him into making that call, you could tell how bad felt about it as he walked by it, he had a look on his face like i screwed you and i know it and im sorry i just couldnt hold my own ground. its really sad to me because i have always liked alot, still do as a person just cant ever see myself having any respect for him as a ref again.

Fair enough

But what about the first part of my question? If the wrestlers stepped out of bounds w/ 12 seconds to go then what is the proper call?

Well the head ref didnt call it, both wrestlers and the head ref that the match was still going which it was and the kid got the take down fair and square so i guess let the wrestlers decide it is my opinion and that didnt happen yesterday.

Since I guess you are not going to answer my question then I will.

If the wrestlers stepped out of bounds then the action should have stopped and the wrestlers taken to the middle of the rign and restarted. A takedown after they stepped out wouldn't count. There can really be no dispute that this is the rule.

The next question is this: If Steve Woody didn't see them step out of bounds but the assistant ref comes to Woody and says that he did see them step out of bounds then what is Woody to do? Ignore the assistant who says he saw it? Only if Woody had cleary seen that they had not stepped out should he ignore the assistant.

My point is this --- you have complained the Woody made a bad call. You say that you have lost all respect for him as a ref. But all Woody did was listen to his assistant ref. If the assistant said they stepped out of bounds and Woody didn't see it then he has to call them out of bounds. What else could he have done.

Like I said earlier - I don't know if they were out of bounds or not. But that is the only issue. It doens't matter that it was a senior what had been injured and a trip to state was on the line. If they stepped out you have to restart. Period. If Woody didn't see it and his assistant said he saw it then Woody has to make the out of bounds call. He has no choice.

If you want to say that the assistant made a horrible call because they wrestlers did not step out of bounds then that is one thing. But it seems to me that you are getting all over Woody for making the only call he could make.

I happen to know Mr. Ross, and I have a great deal of respect for him. Although I was not there and didn't see the call, here is what I think about it. The assistant on the mat could certainly offer his suggestion as to what may have happened but ultimately the head referee on the mat has the final say so.

I think the most important aspect of this situation is that the RIGHT call was made. So IF the wrestler did indead step out of bounds and it was missed by the the head official in the match but was later correct to the the right call, isn't that the most important thing? I mean everyone complains about officials who miss calls or make the right one, and here is a guy just trying to do the right thing and make sure it gets called right, and you are blasting him.

All in all it shouldn't be a controversy at all. Either way you look at it, either the actual deserving wrestler got to go to state on one side, or someone who shouldn't be at state would be going because of a potential missed call. I believe its in everyones best interest to just let this issue die knowing that the wrestler who should have won, did, on that night. Hey folks its wrestling and this is what makes our sport so tough!

I thought i did anwser your question disney but apperntly i did not understand it the way you intended, i know Mr. Ross too and if he was doing what he thinks is right thats one thing but you could tell steve did not think they were out of bounds, neither do i, but if they were out of bounds why did Ross let the match go on for 12 seconds instead of coming in arms flying and try to get his attention. i just think it was a bad call that is all

At this time of the year there will be allot of calls in question. A Ref can make 1000 good calls to where all the people are just as happy as can be, than there is the 1 call that is made to where they loose all their respect in some peoples eyes, and hind out from the lynch mob's. Really now was it the worst call ever that you have seen? Or was it nothing more than a team member who you felt was cheated? What if rolls where reversed, and the other kid got the take down, and Woody would of stood his ground (as you said was his duty as head Ref), and not added the time back, and the match would of stayed at that. Would we be hearing the same degrading of Mr. Woody? Where was the coach? if it was that bad a call he should still be there arguing his point. There will be allot more close and questionable calls next week I suppose also.

the rule says though that the second official does not have the right to change the call jsut give advice and since steve didn't ask for advice how can he change it?

first of all it is not a teamate, just a friend of my brothers and one of my good friends brothers wrestling. and if the rolls were reversed i still say it was a horrible call but be very happy for the kid from my town and if Mr. Woody held his ground i would have been very impressed with him for not backing down to the head ref, trust me ive been their when we get a horrible call and i alway smile and say that was a bad call but lucky for us, i ref one tournament a year to remind myself how hard reffing is and for that reason i dont think i have critized a refs point awarding since i started doing that 3 years ago, but im sure some one can find something i said on here, but if the rolls were reversed me the kids brother would have been in the stands laughing and saying man we got lucky, im really not one to critize how a ref officates on the mat, i might yell during the match in passion but afterwards i remember how dang hard it is, all i know is everyone their thought it was a bad call and i wasnt going to post anything about it but then someone asked what the controversy was all about so i gave them my opinion, isnt what this is what this forum is for is opnion or maybe im missing the whole point of having this thing.

That is the longest sentence I've ever seen.

That sucks, I really sympathize for that kid. ONline, it says the score was 1-0, is that correct?

If anyone has a question regarding a rule interpretation I'd suggest the Ask the Ref forum...

While on this topic, heard also that the other Woody witnessed a wrestler punch another wrestler but said she could not do anything about it as she was not the referee of that match. If that is the case then things need to change as that is pathetic that on official that is not officiating the match cannot do a thing when they witness this kind of behavior...........I hope this is not correct.

Should the assising ref come in and stop the match when he sees the wrestlers go out of bound or does he wait until the wrestling has stopped. I haven't seen many assisting refs stop the match in a situation like that. Also, most of the time the head referee should be able to see if both feet of both wreslters had gone out of bounds before the takedown is granted, if that is the case then they should restart. But, the thing with wrestling out of bounds, it has been my experience that each referee has their own opinion of what is considered "out of bounds". I have seen referees allow wrestling to go on when both wrestlers are almost completely out of the ring and other refs who stop it when one supporting point touches out.

The assistant can and should make the call on the out of bounds call. The head official can choose to accept it or not. The reason for the assistant is to get the calls right. But the assistant cannot blow the whistle and if the action is fast moving when the infraction occurs it isn't unusual for some time to run off. Also, the assistant knows that the head official might disagree so he isn't going to be jumping in and stopping a takedown in progress in case the head official sees it a different way. If the kids were on their feet, the assistant no doubt saw them both step on the line...they are out...the assistant's job is often to "watch the line" while the head checks out everything else. I don't think you can read anything into "body language" or anything else, obviously the head had confidence in his assistance or he could have ignored the advice.

An off mat official isn't going to jump into another official's match to report an infraction, such as punching, unless that mat official asks. Remember too, a lot of these officials are working with guys they don't normally work with so you don't have the same familiarity as you might otherwise, say for a league tournament.