Those same kids that are freshman and 8th graders competed against each other when they were 12U (ages 12 & 11) in 10U (ages 10 & 9) and in 8U(ages 8,7,&6). Only difference is your calling the 14 year old a freshman and the 13 year old a 8th grader. And Actually there might be some 13 year old freshman and 14 year old 8th graders out there depending on when parents enrolled their children for kindergarten. I don't hear anyone complaining about the kids who have the so-called good b-day. What about all the kids who have a b-day in Sept, Oct, Nov, and Dec.? All of those kids are older. Every wrestler is at the top of his/her age division every other year. Every child develops differently. Some might be strong now but, the others will catch up down the road. They just need to continue to practice hard every day and do things to stay in shape. Because their time will come.

Okay, I will call a truce with you on my part and I will start to reply to you again. I will take you at your word that you were replying in jest last year.

As far as the KWCA post goes, whenever this topic comes up I refer to it to point out to some posters that this is not just an idea that is being supported by people who are worried that their 8th grader is not going to be competitive against the freshmen that year. My purpose is to show them that other active wrestling community people (KWCA high school coaches) have had the idea that maybe high schoolers should not be wrestling in the kids state tournament series and should be doing something else instead. After reading your reply to me yesterday I was trying to remember exactly what the reasons that were stated in previous years as to why that KWCA proposal could not work. I can't say I remember exactly. Did it have something to do with the length of the middle school wrestling season? It seems like I remember that maybe you or someone else might said if the Kids state tournament series was to end before high school state that it would conflict with the end of the middle school seasons in some parts of Kansas. Is that right or was it something else?

As far as the statement I made that the majority of states do not have the high schoolers wrestle with the elementary and middle school kids in their Kids post season folkstyle state tournaments. I believe that I tried to contact someone with the national USAW organization to see if they had that information. I believe what they responded to me is that they have not compiled that exact information but that I could check each individual state's tournament requirements but that I would probably end up finding that very few states have their high schoolers come back after the season to wrestle in their Kids state folkstyle tournament series. I am trying to locate that communication because I normally keep that type of communication but so far I have been unable to locate it. So I guess you are right to challenge me on that one, but honestly don't you really think it is probably true that the majority of states do not include their high school kids in the their Kids state folkstyle season?

My last comment on your reply post to me from yesterday will be about me pointing out about how the non wrestling community that I have contact with all talk about the NCAA basketball tournament but not the wrestling tournament. You said that this forum should be a sanctuary from that and asked why are they all talking about it. My purpose in making the comment was just to show that wrestling needs to be open to change and outside the box thinking like Will's proposals. I think we have to talk about how we are so far behind basketball and football in popularity with the general sports public. I don't think we can ignore it. I think we have to face it, talk about it, and think of ways to change the situation so that in the long run we can start to see wrestling programs in college start to grow again.

Have a good day today and I will do my best going forward to keep good communication between the two of us. If you ever want to e-mail me personally, feel you can do so comfortably to:

vlnowak@everestkc.net

Time for a time out. I sometimes read these posts for fun because I like the annual topic this time of year, but as a high school coach and KWCA member, I may have missed this one. I don't recall ever hearing this proposal you keep referring to. I know quite a few coaches across the state in all classes and I personally have never heard one H.S. coach lament the fact that any of his athletes were wrestling outside of the season. 14 & Under, 16 & Under, Folk, Free, Grecco, Sumo...I don't care where they wrestle, who they are wrestling, whether they're winning or losing. The mat time is what's important and their desire to get better.

If your 8th grader was winning all season and suddenly can't compete, raise your game. If you can, good for you.

Other than that, don't say that high school coaches don't want their kids to wrestle. There were no fewer than 6 (& probably more) head coaches IN ATTENDANCE either coaching their own kids or helping their local club at D3 yesterday.

Gary Seibel
Salina South

I think it is horrible putting these 8th graders against the9th graders. The 9th graders are wt training and have been training for 5 days a week under very experienced coaches. These 8th graders work hard and then are discouraged because they have to go against the high schoolers. Anyone that thinks there is not a difference doesn't understand wrestling. Also what do these 9th graders prove by coming in a beating 8th graders. You can also talk to high school coaches and they will tell that even the high school J.V. wrestlers are better than the 8th graders. It is about skill and strength. In D1N who had wrestlers like Clint Lee, George Gillespie, Sheldon Graves and J.D. McKnight that should have made it but were beat by H.S> Some of these guys dominated as 8th graders during middle school season. How is that fair? These H.S have already had their chance at H.S. state - 8th graders do not have a middle school state - Kids CLub is their state. Don't say that these 8th graders could lift. Boys should not lift until they are 14 and then only moderate wt until they are 16. Most of these 8th graders dont turn 14 until mid year and it takes weeks to build up strenght. Strenght training should be done in the off-season. I hope someone looks at this because this is just heartbreak that these 8th graders but in so much time and then dont even stand a chance.

In my opinion,if you compete at a high school level then you are done with Kids Club. Any one saying that this is whining - lets put your high schooler up against a freshman in college and see how they do.

You just dont have a clue. HIgh school wrestling is totally differnt from what you learn in kids club. 8 and under where one might be 7 is not the same as a freshman in high school who has been coached by the likes Chad Parks of Shawnee Heights, Beau @ Topeka High, Gusby from Topeka West, etc. These coaches train there wrestlers different then kids club wrestlers. Most of the kids clubs wrestlers are coached by well meaning parents that may have wrestled in H.S. but not at the level of these H.S. coaches.

You ask any H.S. wrestler that wrestled Kids club and they will tell you that Kids club was nothing compared to H.S.

Eight grade season is over before the holiday breaks - H.S. have wreslted up to either Regionals and State and then come straight into Kids CLub. So if they lost at regionals the next week they are at kids club.

THey have more practice time and experience.

I don't remember anyone stating that High School coaches don't want their team wrestling after the HS season. The issue is that in Kansas, 9th and 10th graders attempt to "raise their game" by wrestling 7th graders. They chase a kids state medal while other states get a full month head start on Freestyle and Greco wrestling. Other states are traveling and wrestling the best that the nation has to offer and our HS wrestlers are competing against middle school kids. This type of thinking is holding our state back.

You might want to check the KSHSAA rule for those doing that.

I just got off of the phone with Tony Purler and he brought this subject up. Perhaps some of you would listen to arguably one of the BEST kids coaches in the country. He believes it is absurd to put middle school and high school wrestlers in the same division. As he stated, it doesn't have anything to do with age or maturity but the fact they have better training, coaching, and experience for the most part. Further, he questioned why any high school kid would want to wrestle eighth graders. There you have it from one of the best.

I can't believe Coach Seibel doesn't believe that he gives his high school kids a big advantage over the eighth graders. Maybe some of you who believe it is fair never wrestled any high school kids when you were in 8th grade...

Im really tired of this subject. Every year it gets brought up and every year the status quo doesn't change. I respect Tony Purler and the competition that his club brings to the table. I however DO NOT care what he thinks about this subject. If thats what he feels than I better not see ONE of his kids and anyone who has attended his clinics show up at a kids wrestling tournament if they are in high school. I can't say that I know if they do or not, I'll check on that, but if they are/do/have in the past then that is as much discredit to his opinion as I need to bring up about it. I've said time and time again that the ONLY way you are going to get better is if you wrestling kids that are better than you.

As a middle school wrestler if all you want to do is continue wrestling the same kids you wrestled through your middle school season then you aren't going to improve yourself, and that is a fact that has proven itself over and over again. While I can say that I was one of those 8th graders who was able to compete with the 9th and even 10th graders, it was because of hard work and a willingness to wrestle against kids who were better than I. Every kid in USAWKS has the same opportunity as the ones that are older than they are. It's all cyclical when its your turn to be the 9th and 10th grader then you get your chance to shine. Not only do you wrestle the 8th graders but you wrestle other class mates. What I have also pointed out is that ALOT of kids DON'T like to wrestle freestyle. There have been a number of coaches on here arguing for the opposition who suggest these kids should "Do something else" Well maybe they don't want to. Maybe folkstyle appeals to them. Any GOOD high school coach would never tell their wrestler to turn down more competition when they get the chance. If this means an extra 4 weeks of folkstyle wrestling then so be it.

I've also seen people say we should have a seperate tournament for these kids. Ok fine I could live with that. But then what becomes the difference? Wouldn't that just mean an extended middle school season for that group, and an extended season for the high school group? The answer is YES. And the reason USAWKS won't do that is quite frankly cost and time. If the coaches who are opposed to the current system want to put up the cost and volunteers for such a tournament then I would have no problem supporting it. Its the old saying "Put up or shut up" Mr. Cokely are you willing to front a thousand or so dollars to establish and extra group in USAKS? Perhaps you could persuade Mr. Purler to do so? If this group of people who don't think its fair can come up with the added cost and volunteers then I will stand side by side with you, if not then its time to lay this issue to rest.

Most importantly lets let the ONLY people who's opinions truly matter on this make the decision ... and that is the kids themselves. The ones that want to compete are going to as they have for years. The ones that are afraid to continue in kids because they might have to wrestle someone who may/may not have advantages on them can choose not to compete. I know I did and never once thought about this stuff. I did it because I loved the sport and the competition. It never occured to me not to wrestle because someone else might be better than me. One of my coaches once told me "No matter how good you are, there is always going to be someone better. All you can do is work your hardest to put yourself one rung up the ladder at a time"

So all that being said, are their any one on here that has their checkbooks open right now? I seriously doubt I'll have many takers on this one.

Tiger,

Those that are opposed to the current system DO CARE how the top wrestling states in the country are excelling. When Tony Purler, John Smith or Cael Sanderson have advice to give, we take notes. Even though you DON'T CARE what they think on this issue, are you at least curious why the top wrestling states in the country have decided to separate Kids wrestling from High School wrestling? During the discussion, do you think there were those like yourself that spoke up with their "are you afraid" story? Evidently they looked past the rhetoric and considered how they could improve the skills of the kids in their state.

Your point about letting the kids decide is a novel idea. We should try it sometime. Are the kids allowed to vote on this? They compete because it's the only format that is offered.

Of all of those kids that you say DON'T like to wrestle Freestyle, how many have ever tried it? Many of the kids that I've coached had the same opinion and now call it their favorite style. It is undeniable that our national teams suffer by getting a late start on FS and GR. It is also undeniable that a HS wrestler is better off stepping up in competition after HS state, than wrestling 7th and 8th graders for an extra month.

To address your serious doubt, I'm in for $1000.

Eric Johnson

Mr Tiger,

I know who you are and you personally told me that you quit posting because it was costing you officiating opportunities.

Kids have one opportunity to win state each year and it should not include having to defeat high school kids who have already competed for a state title. The solution I offer is that if you are a freshman then you should have to wrestle 16 and under so that 14 and under would only include 7th and 8th graders. There are plenty of National level tournaments that 7th and 8th graders can get more competition at. If an 8th grade wrestler is to be too good to wrestle in 14U then permit them to bump up to 16U.

If you are tired of the subject then shut up, don't post. I have put my money where my mouth is while you have, for years, ridiculed my opinion you only take money from this sport.

Tony will not tell his pupils what they can and can't do but he has expressed his opinion. If you don't value it that is your choice. Tony does not MANDATE but unfortunately those who are only politically involved or just wish to assert authority do.

Count me in for $1000 to as I guess you don't feel I have put in enough already. How have you tried to make this sport better for kids?

Maybe someday it will change maybe it won't.

Takedown is right. From now on we should pair kids up according to their win/loss record. At least that way we'll know that they are about the same level in talent. It doesn't make much sense to have two kids wrestling each other if one can possibly be more talented than the other.

Perhaps you would be in favor of giving medals to everyone who competes too. Then no one would have to feel bad when they lose. Wrestling is about who is the best in your age and weight group. Its not about what grade you are in. Grades are nothing more than a cutoff for a particular age. I think what some fail to realize is that even though these kids might be a grade or two ahead of the others they are wrestling, they can be no more than 2 years older than them. The issue becomes how much more practice this group gets than the other. And as Will so delicately put it, how much more experience they get. Now this seems odd to me because he basically proves it himself that these 9th graders are better because they are wrestling better wrestlers in high school.

Whats also interesting is this same group of people aren't on here arguing about how we should split up the high school competition as well. Maybe only 9-10th can be a group and 11-12th? Takedown if you really believe the top 8th grade wrestlers really don't want to see better competition than the other guys they have beat up on all year, then you are crazy. You might be interested to know that there are some states that allow 8th graders to compete in high school competition aka 5X state champions. I know New Mexico is one of these states, and they have had a few of these 5 timers.

Concerning the issue at hand. Ok so now you've got two people to submit $1000. Now all you need is about 15 more to do the same. And you are also going to need about 50 volunteers to help you out. More importantly you are going to need a group of kids willing to forgo their opportunity at the officially sanctioned Kids State to compete. Find me those kids and I'll be more than happy to volunteer my time to officiate this tournament (without pay). Will that be sufficient enough contribution for you Mr. Cokely? As I said before I'm not opposed to the suggestions this group makes. I don't believe that their is enough support from the kids themselves. According to the stats listed on the main page there are about 1700 kids registered in the 14U & 16U age groups combined. If even 20% of these kids are willing to compete in this tournament ( which by the way would have to be held at the same time as the already in place kids state tournament series ) then I say lets go for it).

On a side note. Apprently this "hurt" you describe by wrestlers who have worked their way through our system, seems to be debunked by the numerous All Americans and National Champions we seems to have. Names like Trevor Charbonneau, Curtis Chenowith, Shawn Silvis. I know for a fact these guys wrestled 8th graders when they were freshman. The list goes on and on. Now obviously we don't have the same number of AA's as say New York or California. But there is also a huge population disparity. I don't feel like doing all the stat research but I bet that if you did you would find that per capita Kansas ranks very high in the wrestling AA status. And don't forget that the Kansas team typically finishes very high in the High School national tournament year over year. We must be doing something right. Im not saying wrestling 8th graders is what made these guys into AA's. What I am saying is it obviously didn't hurt them.

I've seen many posts related to the inclusion of more FS/GR wrestling and yet if you look at the FS/GR event calender there is typically only 1 or 2 tournaments a weekend here in Kansas. I believe the reason is as I said before because there just isn't as much interest from the parents or the athletes in these styles. That is a major reason why USAWKS doesn't want to make more state tournaments etc. etc. In order to change the system you have to have the support. It hasn't been there in years past and it will probably continue to be that way. I find serious doubt that you will ever be able to muster the support. There are many reasons for this which I have already illustrated. Continuing to bring this up every year isn't going to bring more support. The only thing that is, if you can give people a more compelling reason. In my opinion you haven't, and won't be able to. If you really want to prove your point, then I suggest you put together a petition and of course the ONLY people who get to sign this petition are the 8th graders who feel the same way you do. If you get enough to sign then MAYBE the board will put some consideration to it. For now though they recognize that a very small minority take issue with this.

Regardless of where you come down on this discussion, I find the following quote a very telling statement........

"Kids have one opportunity to win state each year and it should not include having to defeat high school kids who have already competed for a state title."

Sometimes, even by accident, the BS gets separated just enough to see what's underneath.

Sport0,

Exactly what do you mean? What is your point? Do you support kids wrestling high school wrestlers? If so, just say that. I don't, I have said and I support my feelings whole heartedly. I don't see any BS anywhere except under posts who have been authored by SPORTSFAN02. What are you saying is underneath my statement? I would still be on for a cage match but I was told you are already collecting social security

Okay guys, I just spent more time being confused by what to do from reading this than I know what to do with. My big toe really hurts this morning and I don't need any more confusion and pain, (headaches per example) I likely made some happy, some sad, by making some edits and deletions. I am not taking any sides here, although I do have opinions on the subject. Please keep personal attacks off the board. If you even think something might be perceived as a personal attack, please use the pm button to send that individual a personal message. Thanks in advance for your loving and considerate cooperation.

While I understand where that quote came from sports, the question I have to ask is ... does every kids have the opportunity to win a state championship? There are many high school teams where Freshman and even Sophomores never make it onto the varsity team. Now you can say its their fault for not being a better wrestler etc. etc. The problem is there are some high schools who just have absolute studs in a majority of their middle weights. We don't have a state championship for J.V wrestlers. So what about a compromise. what if we said that Freshman and Sophomores were eligible to compete at kids state IF they didn't participate at the High School tournament?

That actually makes sense T.