I have, on several occaisions, talked with and exchanged email with Gary Musselman and Rick Bowden. I have asked questions about all of the restrictions I am opposed to and each time I ultimately get the party line "The member schools have voted in favor of these rules." Given that I am curious how others feel. Coach Travius feels it is a waste of time to fight the KSHSAA but I guess I have a problem with an organization that is supported by my tax dollars not delivering to its members what they really want. I have always felt that change could and should be started right here at the grass roots level. How many of you would like to see a Kansas team compete in the Ironman Classic or some other distant, top notch tournament? How many of you would like to take your freshman or sophomore son to Roller's CK Kickoff in the fall? How many of you would support middle school wrestling if wrestlers could compete in tournaments outside of their school's schedule? How many would like to see our kids be able to wrestle 60 or 70 matches in a season? (On this topic I was specifically told by Rick Bowden that too many matches are hard on the kids' joints, I guess Kansas kids have weaker joints than the kids down in Texas!) How many kids would like to have their HS coach in their corner during the NHSCA and USA Wrestling events? How many of you coaches would offer sessions year round? How many of you coaches would offer your time to the kids program and hit a few Sunday novice events? This is just a few suggestions. I would love to see others and some momentum generated to change the KSHSAA's rules.

Will,

I'm with you on seeing some things change big time for the sport of wrestling. I would like to see a change allowing High School coaches to work with their kids in fs/greco as well. I think another thing is the travel distance limitation should be bumped at least another 100 miles onto the 500 from any border which would give some great competition even further away.

I would also like to see wrestling open up by giving more competition points and allowing kids to compete in "OPEN" Tournaments against other high schoolers. (It is a huge shame on our state that we can't send kid's to the OU Open High School Division which is well attended by colleges as well for the collegiate division)

I'm tired so I'll have to think more clearly later...

I'm with you Will but we live in a reactionary society.

Somethin BAD happens and BANG a new rule.

Look at our laws. Lets just face it as bad as the VA Tech situation was this last weekend, some politician will propose a law to require all students in America to go through medal detector before entering their college classrooms. Pretty soon you wont be able to do anything in this Country.

Plenty of speechless high school coaches would like a change but lets face it somethin happened in the past to cause these rules to exist and it will be hard to get them off the books. You may do better getting each of the member school to sign a petition saying they would like to change XYZ rule then you would to post on the forum because honestly this is a wrestling forum OF COURSE it will be a little one sided.

MAYBE wrestling isnt the problem... maybe its football or BASKETBALL... are u familiar with the Kevin Ross story. I will give u a short summary. Kevin Ross was a really tall kids who grew up in the early 70's. of course if u are dunkin the ball in the 6th grade you might make a good basketball player. Kevin attended the same Junior High that I work at now then later on attend Wyandotte High School. He had a very successful high school basketball winning a state title. He was recruited to Creighton University and played for 3 years. He was injured most of the time and after an injury in his senior year of college not only was he cut off the team but his scholarship was dropped. Kevin eventually sued the school not because they used him for basketball but because after 6 years of elementary education, 2 years of junior high school, 4 years of high school, and 3.5 years of college... KEVIN ROSS COULDNT READ!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/page2/tvlistings/show103transcript.html

I dont want to be negative I am sayin that is the type of stuff you are up against. Maybe not so much in wrestling but maybe so!

I am just sayin what can we do NOW to improve within the guidelines. Because waitin on KSHSAA to change or tryin to force KSHSAA to change may take years.

P.S. ... If they are goin to change a rule I dont care about goin to the East Coast to wrestle, or wrestling 1,000 matches, get the rule changed what would allow more coaches to coach more kids in the off season.

Just to hit a note, I don't know if more team points will do the trick. Coming from another state, though, I have noticed that the believing in the coach, is a lot greater when you can get them involved in the F/S and Greco scene. If a coach is able to show that they will go the extra mile and do what is asked from his wrestler (such as get experience over the summer) then the wrestlers will be more involved. I know KS has it set up as an equal playing field for the LAZY. But why not let those that want to build a program and do the extra get "rewarded for their efforts" instead of handcuffing them.

I think that the state wants everybody to be equal and not stand out. They are taking care of the bottom tier teams not the top half.

it is crazy the way wrestling is treated in Kansas. we are moving up from Texas this summer and are considering leaving our high school wrestler in Texas with a teammate to wrestle for one more year just because of the advantages he has wrestling in Texas. the extra workouts he can get working out with greats like Kenny Monday, Kendal Cross, and other one on one he can get. not to mention alot more mat time with competition like the OK open.

This is to Aaron Sweazy and what he is saying, hes right on this and Kansas needs to start looking at getting in tune with the other states so are kids can complete and win.
I have two grandsons that wrestled this year for Hiawatha and both have college coaches talking to them and one is a 10 grader and the other is a 12 grader and after both placed at state this year we see that they should be wrestling most of the year but where, the school will not let them in the wrestling room because it turns into a weight room as soon as schools out.
Now that gas is three dollars a gallon its hard to drive to Topeka to pratice twice a week or any other club. KSHSAA is not looking to change to many rules to help people who love wrestling and maybe we should try and change the people running the KSHSAA.
The second thing I would like to see is our high school coaches wanting to help the kids club and the middle schools wrestling programs, most teachers that are wrestling coaches, are there for the extra money they get paid to coach, now saying that I do know that there are a lot of high school coaches that would and are working with the kids clubs and that is great but there are still to many that are doing it for the money, some coaches are coaching football, wrestlng, track, its hard to make me belive that they are great coaches at all three sports and would take time to work for the kids wrestling club for free.
Take a look at Hiawatha because thats where I live and as you all know we were a very good wrestling team a few years ago and were a good football team to, now as most of you know we lost 9 football games last year and are having a hard time filling our 14 weights in wrestling, Yes we have a few good wrestlers but they came out of the kids program that me and two other men coached, We got very little help from the school other than Rod Spellman. Aaron I hope you understand what I am saying and lets try and work forward to help the kids in Kansas to be able to wrestle year round and get help from the School coaches.

I'm all for something happening to allow growth in the sport! I know Hiawatha well, 1998 Hiawatha team was one of the best teams I could recall in the late 90's. It is a shame how some things go down hill. I think more times than not coaches leave smaller rural schools for "bigger ones" not because of support of admin, but for $$$. It breaks my heart when I have to turn down jobs because I make more than some coaches do in a season in about 2 weeks of work!

to grandad--I am not sure where your concerns regarding Hiawatha wrestling have anything to do with the KSHSAA--it is not the KSHSAA that requires your school to turn the wrestling room into a weight room; it is not the KSHSAA that sets the price of gasoline, it is not the KSHSAA that hired the coaches in your school who are only "doing it for the money," nor is it the fault of the KSHSAA that your school cannot fill 14 weights (not just a problem in Hiawatha, I might add). Finally, you want the school coaches to spend more time with your wrestlers, but yet you are suspicious of the coaches you have. Reads to me as though your anger is being displaced.

To all others in this thread: At the risk of starting a firestorm because someone would have the audacity to defend the KSHSAA, here goes: Rick Bowden nor Gary Musselman make the rules on their own regarding Kansas wrestling. Further, neither Bowden or Musselman have the authority to unilaterally change the rules that govern Kansas wrestling. There is, in fact, a governance system in place for making rule change RECOMMENDATIONS and for acting on those rules. There is an ELECTED Board of Directors on which EVERY HS LEAGUE in Kansas has a REPRESENTATIVE ELECTED by the Leagues. On this Board are also representatives of Middle Schools, the State Board of Education, locally elected Board of Educations and representatives of state organizations such as the Kansas Coaching Association. From this group of 40+ persons (who ARE elected by the KSHSAA MEMBER SCHOOLS), an Executive Board is selected which consists of one representative of each classification (who is typically a school principalor athletic director), a middle school rep, a State BOE rep and a local BOE rep. While the KSHSAA Director and Asst. Director may not favor rule changes that are proposed, they HAVE NO VOTE. If you are really interested how recommendation become rules, or how rules are changed withing the KSHSAA governance structure contact Rick or Gary and they will be glad to give you that information. But, if you want something done before the start of next season save your time. Do you think the governance is too unwieldy? It is the result of a law suit filed several years ago by parents charging that the KSHSAA was not representative enough which led to the Kansas Legislature mandating changes in the KSHSAA to accommodate more views--hence the expansion of the Board of Directors. I do not always agree with the KSHSAA, but I also have worked with them enough to know that there are reasons for the rules and that they KSHSAA personnel are good people who strive to maintain the best interests of ALL Kansas schools and students.

The KSHSAA does seem to move at a glacier pace at times--and this is probably a good thing more often than not. Some of the things I read on this site are not good for kids or coaches or parents. I know this is a site devoted to wrestling but lets not forget we are talking about kids who many times have other school and athletic interests besides just wrestling. Lets also remember that not every wrestling coach in Kansas was a qualifier for the US Olympic team, a college wrestler, a state champion, etc. Some do it because if they don't no one else will, or because they love the sport, or they like working with kids, or they do it for the money (those who do it only for the money don't do it long).

There are MANY ways for your coaches to work with your athletes outside of the season within the rules that are now in place. If you need some ideas contact the coach at any school who is, year in and year out, competitive at the state level; those programs don't just happen. Also, having your kids work with different coaches is a GOOD thing--any GOOD coach will tell you that.

One final point and then I will retire and you guys can have at me--just because YOU think something is a good idea or should be done, doesn't mean it really is a good idea or a good thing for all. A lot of what I read on this forum or elsewhere is mostly what "I think should be done; or "what (some other state) does;" which leads to "if the KSHSAA doesn't immediately do what I think should be done they are stupid." Our society has become entirely too "me-oriented," impatient, and (IMHO) way too specialized. Schools are NOT ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIP FACTORIES!

Yours in Wrestling, Greg Mann; Norton, KS

Egg,
Your post should put a stop to all the KSHSAA bashing on this board BUT unfortunately it won't!

My thoughts exactly!

"Schools are NOT ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIP FACTORIES!"

Guess it depends which high school you go to....another thing is while they may not be the above mentioned, I will say a lot of kids get books and tuition covered in this state in a plethora of sports at the juco level...so athletics does play some importance in $$$ for the next level.

[quote=Cokeley]I"The member schools have voted in favor of these rules." Given that I am curious how others feel. quote]

Egg,

This is from the original post. I know the member schools vote for the rules not Gary and Rick. However, they make recommendations. The whole point of the post was that we need to influence those who vote to make some changes. Principals, AD's, board members, whoever it is lets find out. The bottom line is that it has to start somewhere. If the majority of high school wrestling coaches want changes then they need to establish solidarity and push for what they want. If they are satisfied with the way things are today then we have our answer, an ugly one, move to another state.

Thanks
Will

I have read all of the diffent ideas in this topic and the one that stands out is Greg Mann from Norton Ks. He hit it right on the head. Norton has a great wrestling team and has had for years and between Greg and Aaron Sweazy they have said what every body in wrestling knows and its time to work to make wrestling in the state the best it can be for the kids that work there butt off and get very little respect from the school they wrestle for.

No doubt many kids get some scholarhsip help for sports--but that is NOT, or SHOULD NOT be the primary mission of schools. Reminds me of the scene from the movie "Friday Night Lights" where the caller on the sport radio show says that one of the the major reasons that Permian High School lost a game is "that school is teaching 'em too much."

There is a LOT of scholarship money available for ACADEMICS; which, coincidentally and ironically, IS the PRIMARY mission of schools. In fact, if every student reading this board REALLY wanted to guarantee themselves scholarship money they should do two things:
#1 make good grades & #2 play a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT through high school. Those two areas will get kids scholarship money at ALL levels of college.

Not at KU!

Well, Red, you reminded me of the third thing students on this board should do:

#1 Make good grades;
#2 Play a musical instrument all through high school; and,
#3 DON'T go to KU

Greg Mann
Norton, KS

EVERY MAN(N) A WILDCAT!

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I would like to interject my two cents.

1st- We need to make sure that we maintain our focus of schools as educational institutions first and foremost. That is the main goal. We are fortunate enough to live in a society that also values competition and athletics, so that in our society schools and athletics go hand in hand. This is not the case in most countries. I think our athletic programs can enhance the learning that goes on in the classroom in several ways: getting kids to come to school who otherwise wouldn't, and by teaching team work, sacrifice, and self discipline. If we are talking about taking students out of school for large chunks of time in order to travel the country to compete, that is detrimental to the main priority of the school system.

2nd- I feel that it is not unreasonable to have some limit on matches. Under our current system of 30 competition points, it would be possible for a wrestler to wrestle 72 matches prior to Regional’s and State. Why this does not happen is because our coaches realize we are working with boys and young men. Coaches realize that the important time of the season is Regional’s and State, and schedule to try to get their athletes to peak at the end of the season. The vast majority of wrestlers could not/ would not survive a 70+ match season. The rate of injury and burn out would be very high. Granted, a very small percentage of wrestlers could handle that many matches, but as a coach who is interested in getting the TEAM to peak at the right time, it would probably be detrimental to that team to wrestle that many matches. Here are 2 things to consider in support of this position
1. In last month's (or 2 month's ago) edition of WIN magazine, Coach Spates of OU cited a major area of concern. His wrestlers that he was recruiting were not able to make it through a season. He attributed this to many of the wrestlers wrestling year round and wrestling too many matches during their developmental stages. He felt like many of these young men were already broken down.
2. There are no current wrestlers on this board posting in support of more matches. I would say that this would be evidence that they may not feel that 70+ matches in a high school season would be beneficial to them. Again, I think a small percentage could handle it, and in fact possibly thrive on that, but the vast majority would not be able to. We would lose them, and our numbers would decline even more.

3rd- If additional matches are desired by the student-athlete, there are a dearth of opportunities available to them. If higher level competition is desired at the national level, again that is available also. There are no limits on how far an individual can travel to a tournament outside of season. There are many tournaments around the nation (some even hear in our own backyard) that bring many of the nations top wrestlers together. For those interested, sign up and keep wrestling!

4th- Scholarships are mentioned several times on here. I agree with EGG, academics are where the money is at. In the recent past Mill Valley has produced 3 wrestlers that in my opinion could compete at some level collegiately had they so chosen to do so. All three chose not to, for various reasons. Fortunately for them (and a credit to them and their families) they were all very strong academically and did not need wrestling scholarships as they received academic scholarships. However, had they chosen to pursue wrestling, these young men would have been very attractive to college coaches. In today's climate at the NCAA level, where scholarship numbers are tied to graduation rates, college coaches are less likely to take a risk on a good wrestler with poor grades. He may not even be eligible to compete, and may end up costing the program scholarships in the future. Also full ride scholarships are rare in wrestling. Most wrestlers split scholarships, even the elite ones. This is so a coach can recruit more wrestlers to make the TEAM stronger. If the wrestler is able to accept less athletic money because they are also receiving academic money, it makes them more attractive to college coaches, and more valuable to the TEAM.

5th- Coaches "doing it for the money". What coaches are doing it for the money, and if so, what schools (rhetorical question, please do not post coaches names or names of schools!)? A fellow teacher in my school made more money 2 wrestling seasons ago than I did coaching wrestling. All he did was supervise tardies for about an hour a night 2-3 nights a week and he worked the clock at basketball games a couple of times a week. If people actually think that coaches coach for the money, they either have a strong misconception about what we get paid to coach (not much), or a lack of understanding of the immense amount of time, effort, and sacrifice that goes in to it. The sacrifices that go in to coaching quickly make anyone who is it in for the money get out. They can make more money pushing shopping carts at the Home Depot or Wal-Mart. The vast majority of coaches are also teachers, which is what they make the majority of their salary doing. If those coaches aren't getting it done in the classroom, the generally don't last very long either.

While I am not necessarily against change, I just want to make sure we keep the scope of the change to a rational level, and that we maintain focus on where it is most important: the development of STUDENT-athletes who are team players.

Coach Spate's guys don't make it through a season because they are the most injury plagued team in NCAA wrestling.

KU Music Scholarships