Mike, I did read again your post on the child making decisions for themselves and I was focusing too much initially on how you opened up with the thought. You did end it with saying basically at some point the child needs to get more involved in the decision making after receiving parental input. I would agree with that and obviously there are also certain choices in life that I am not prepared to let my 7th grader make yet.

I don't know if you feel this way about say this decision to participate in middle school or club wrestling, but I believe as 7th and 8th graders that most kids should be ready to make this choice on their own. I would let my son make this call on his own. Just like I am letting him now decide which tournaments he wants to wrestle 12 & under at and which ones he wants to wrestle up at 14 & Under. I also let him pick between Topeka and Liberty Nationals this year. He likes the Topeka tournament more and he chose Topeka. I just think he is more than ready to make choices like this and I really believe he could make this choice between club and school participation too.

If memory serves me correctly, Phil Kline was on the cross-country, wrestling and track teams at Shawnee Mission Northwest (class of '78). While I don't believe he ever placed at State in wrestling, he was indeed a very good athlete and an all-around good guy.

Martialarts,

I pose the same question to you as I did Mike, where did I (sportsfan02) tell him to go back to Oklahoma? If you are referencing other posters then please be clear and do not attribute those comments to me!
In regards to my comment of "be like Mike" it was an attempt to be humorous in pointing out that not all of us had to agree with him. No insult was intended and I have a hard time seeing how it could be construed that way.
As to my statement of "your beloved former state", isn't it obvious to you as it is me that Mike has a deep affection for Oklahoma? I'm just not willing to buy his BS that because it is Oklahoma that it has to be bigger and better than here. Much like the okies don't buy it when the Texans say it.
As to Mike promoting Kansas wrestling, I fail to see how coming onto a public forum and constantly telling us how backwards and behind Oklahoma we are reflects positively on us.

Back to the original point of this discussion. Sportsfan02 - It's best for me to agree to disagree with your opinion on this subject. The points you have mentioned are reasonable, but I yet to understand how those points carry enough weight for Kansas to have such a rule.
#1 --- Yes the purpose of public schools is to educate. This does not tread water in my eyes. Why have sports programs at all if this is the sole reason. Secondly, as stated previously, I am a mother of a middle school student who does not wrestle for the middle school. As a parent, if his grades were not to par, he certainly would not be participating in wrestling. In reality, he has been forced to manage his time wisely knowing that he only has a span of about 1.5 hours to complete homework before trotting off to wrestling practice from 6-8:30. TIME MANAGEMENT has been taught through wrestling. Whereas --- school practice are from what time --- 3:00 to 5:00. Probably not much of a TIME MANAGEMENT skill required there. Furthermore, I'll put my son's 3.98 GPA and academic honors against those of the same grade in the state.

Point #3
We as a family was forced to make the decision this year with regards to competing for the shcool vs club as a middle school student. I infact called our HIGH SCHOOL coach for his opinion. I quote, "IF IT WERE MY SON, I WOULD WRESTLE NATIONALLY." Please keep in mind, there are some athletes that are willing to commit and ready to compete at that level AND there are some that are not. Again the decision lies with the athlete and the parents. Each of our children are unique and we as parents, coaches, students, and athletes should be able to make the decision based on the circumstances. The state should not DICTATE the can and cant's over this subject.

Leaving wrestling alone --

It is ludricous that my son can not participate in a CHURCH Fundraising basketball tournament because he plays on the VARSITY basketball team at school. What is the logic here? If you throw up the "injury" argument, I'll scream. You can get injured walking out the door and tripping down the steps. You can be injured shooting baskets in the drive way. Does the state law also state they can not shoot basketballs in their own drive way while they are participating in High School basketball???

If this law also applies to scholarly things in school as well...If Joe builds a robot for the science fair in his Enrichment Program (Gifted Program) to be held this Saturday at the school, but finds out there is a National competition (not sponsored by the school) the same Saturday in Washington DC. Does this mean he can not enter his robot at the National level? As a parent what would you honestly do???

wrestlemom,

Those were not meant to be my opinions but rather reasons that the KSHSAA would give you for not allowing a student to participate in a sport outside of the school during that sports season. I'm sure there are more but those just happened to be 3 that I could think of and with which I happen to agree.
Yes I'm sure if the powers that be in education could have seen the future in regards to what sports would become they never would have allowed them to become a part of the system. I don't feel that old but yet when I went to school girls athletics were non-existent. The boys were limited to fb, cc, bb, wrestling, golf and track. The junior highs at the time followed suit as to the sports they offered. If your high school coach told you to have your son participate with a club rather than the school I would guess he doesn't have much confidence in the middle school coaches abilities. There is the rub with this thing we call organized athletics. That being the lack of qualified coaches at all levels. I see middle school coaches all the time that I'm sure had never seen a wrestling match prior to being hired as a coach. All too often middle school coaches particularly in so called secondary sports are there simply because they lack tenior and can't refuse the assignment. This is where you and others as patrons of that district have to develope relationships with your administration and encourage/prod/demand qualified instructors. Personally if a school isn't going to seek out and hire qualified coaches I wish they would eliminate that sport, as long as it is done equitably, ie if you eliminate wrestling then bb must go too.
While I appreciate your concern regarding your son's education the same cannot be said of all parents. Our club has had parents approach us about their child wrestling with us during the middle school season because that child was academically ineligible. Like most laws or in this case regulations, they are written for about 20% of the population. The rest of us just have to abide by them. Going back to your original post the KSHSAA clearly does not dictate that your child can't participate in his/her sport out of season. Unlike alot of government regulations I find the KSHSAA regulations to be very clear in their intent and scope. I have a hard time believing your school doesn't comprehend the meaning of these. The only thing I can figure is the school district has made a conscious decision that they want students participating in school sponsored activities or not at all. While I'm not an attorney this policy in itself may be a violation of KSHSAA regulations. Either way the policy is flawed and they should come clean with you the tax payer/parent and not plead ignorance.
As to your question regarding participating in a church sponsored event during bb season. In writing all laws/regulations there is an attempt by those writing them to close all loopholes. Once a loophole is discovered it soon becomes a sinkhole. While it seems very restrictive, and is, the purpose was to keep students from participating in organized sports outside the school during season, for all of the reasons in my previous post. All of which, as I stated I agree with.

Oh boy!! I didn't realize I would open such a can of worms when I started this thread. But, now that I have....
I have read through all of the posts and feel I should voice my opinion. Let me start by saying that I attended school K-12 in NY State and had never heard of anything like the KSHSAA rules until I moved here 9 years ago. I have also lived in IL, MO, CT, CA, AL and NC, and I do not believe any of them have anything similar to these rules.
I know this may seem offbase on a wrestling site, but I can tell you that, if the choice needs to be made, my son will be giving up band in school in a few years. You see, his mom and I were members of a nationally-competitive drum corps for many years and he now wants to do that as well when he turns 16. If these KSHSAA rules also apply to band, then his school will lose a very good trumpet player. There is no way, no matter how good the teacher, that a local HS band program can offer him the education and experiences of a top-level drum corps. These multi-million dollar private organizations have the absolute best musical instructors in the world working for them, they spend eight weeks a year living on the road performing, and the life lessons the members learn far exceed anything they can learn in a one-hour-a-day class. So, instead of the local school benefitting from a better educated member of its band, it will lose this talent due to a rule dictated by a state that does not even offer one of these top-notch programs (he will be going to a corps in either Iowa or Colorado).
So, my opinion is the same as many other people on this site (and I believe the majority of our state's voters): A small group of education officials should NOT dictate what my children do with their time away from the school. How they wish to live their lives, and spend their talents, should be up to them and, as minors, their parents. I believe this is one of the things our forefathers meant when they wrote the Constitution.

ksdave,
I believe the drum corps season is in the summer correct? If so, it won't be a problem for you.

Actually, drum corps starts with the tryout camps in November and December, and then the camps go once a month until spring training starts in the end of May. They then go 8AM until 11PM everyday for four weeks, then go on the road for seven or eight weeks.
It's pretty intense.
(And for those who think it's just band, you try hauling a forty-pound marching tuba around 15 hours a day while moving at 180 beats/minute!).
We traveled with a corps as part of the food staff last summer for over a week, and my son really loved it. Even the days here in Kansas that were the hottest of the summer (remember those days in July? THAT was the pits). He just loves activities that entail lots of work (like wrestling).

I have a question about the quality of wrestling in the Kansas junior high program. Is the general quality more of a club wrestling novice or open division? If I recall this topic correctly from last year it seemed like it was more towards novice in general with the exception of a few school districts.

If it is more towards a club novice quality, I am not sure it is fair to either the experienced skilled wrestler or the new wrestlers. I guess I would have a little concern that the mismatches could prematurely discourage some of the new wrestlers. It has been my experience that lack of success can be a major factor in young wrestlers dropping from the sport at a very early stage. I agree with sportsfan02 that there is some great benefit to being part of your school's team but I think it probably more important at the high school vs. the junior high school level. I know in some communities it could be as important at the junior high level. I guess in this case, I would like to see wrestling participation and family interest grow and I see some potential for running off some new wrestlers and families if they are thrown into an overly competitive situation too early in their careers.

It sounds like in Kansas we are unable to participate in national or regional tournaments during the regular high school season for any sport. I thought that was true for about any State, but it sounds like I'm incorrect about that. I know though that last Spring Adam Perkins, an accomplished cross country and track star from Liberty, Missouri, gave up his senior high school track season because I believe if he participated that he would have been unable to compete at some national competitions. You often hear about this in individual sports where individuals choose to give up their high school participation to purse a higher level of competition. I have read about swimmers doing that in the Kansas City area. I know that when they do this that they are not representing their school but is it really a good situation for say the Williams sisters to be demolishing local high school girls tennis competition? Maybe in some cases it is better for both parties (the Williams sisters and their local competition) not to be competing against each other.

For Jim Gaither, I am a friend of Phil Kline's brother and yesterday I had him do some research for me on Phil's high school career. His senior year he won the Sunflower League title and placed sixth at State. His brother was not sure if the tournament format in 1978 was a Grand State format or the current class format. He did say that Phil went on to wrestle a couple of years on a wrestling scholarship at Central Missouri State. He did not wrestle all four years due to an injury. After college he worked for a period of time as an assistant to the SM Northwest wrestling coach.

I am not from Kansas, but nevertheless, I find this topic very interesting as well as a topic which I am somewhat dealing with with my middleschool sons. My kids are now in middleschool, but ever since entering middleschool wrestling, they have really not progressed in their folkstyle wrestling as compared to when they were in 4th and 5th grade where they would have practices catered to their needs and be given more individual attention.
During freestyle/greco season is another story as they have continued to improve.

But at times my kids wonder if they are better off not wrestling for their middleschool team and have them practice at different sites and have practices catered to their needs as opposed to go to daily practices with virtually no worthy practice partners who simply do not push them. At times they have felt as if they are wasting their time away in those 2-2.5 hours of practice time not being able to practice or drill techniques that has been taught to them and has worked in the past, as well as not being pushed during live wrestling. The fact is that they are at a much higher level then the team and are not improving.

After reading all of the above posts, I have to agree with what Mike Furches states in many of his posts. I do not think that an individual or individuals should be held back in their progress, or opportunities to find the best possible competition they can (being tournaments or in the practice room). I on the other hand, do not agree in over doing the national tournament circuit, I have intentionally limited that for my kids as well for some of the reasons
In this situation, it is not the coach's fault, as most of the kids are beginners and the coach is doing a good job with them. But what does that do to my kids?
So basically these experiences has been a big eye opener for me and my kids as far as looking into what highschool they would be attending, something that we will simply have to investigate and research.

I stand corrected. Phil was one year ahead of me in HS and we participated in a number of sports together. I remember his League title but did not remember him placing at State. Sorry Phil!

martialarts,

Funny you quit replying to this topic before answering MY questions but yet you expect me to answer yours!

Sorry for this long post, I promise it will be my last one (long one on this topic). I will let the readers know that the first section is a promise I made regarding asking some questions at Tulsa Nationals.

Regarding my questions of individuals regarding their support or lack thereof of middle school Vs. Clubs & National Tournaments.

I had the opportunity this last weekend to talk to several people regarding their opinions as to what is best for kids in middle school regarding their participation in School or Club. Below is a very brief summary of their responses. It was interesting that when possible all thought that when possible that kids should wrestle both for club and school, but when not possible the options varied a little regarding the benefit of national tournaments.

Joe Seay – Former Olympic Coach & Assistant at University of Virginia Now, known of as possibly the greatest tactical coach alive, also Kansas State NCAA National Champion Wrestler. - When not possible as is in Kansas, do what is best for the kid, to be a good wrestler though club participation is better than school on a middle school level because more advanced techniques and tougher competition become a part of the norm. Mental toughness and tough competition produce tougher wrestlers.

Kenny Monday – Former Olympic Gold Medal Winner. He expressed strong opinion that club wrestling on a Jr. High Level was the best option for high level wrestlers. “You only get better by wrestling the best.” Kenny would state. He did not take away from Jr. High Wrestling though; he felt that it was better for more advanced wrestlers to wrestle the best. I must say here that Kenny coaches a team out of Texas as assists at a High School. It would certainly become obvious why he would support youth wrestling but he was rather emphatic about wrestling the best and the only way to do that is at national tournaments. He also indicated that if we want to produce Olympic Champions that they will have to wrestle as many National Tournaments as possible.

Cael Sanderson - I was somewhat surprised in that Cael was not as clear on his opinion. We spent some time talking at his motel prior to his departure and he felt that the National tournaments do tend to put too much pressure on the kids and that if done they should be done on a limited basis, especially at first. While he would not come right out and state that he felt it was better to just go Jr. High, maybe because he has done so many appearances this year for Cliff Keen, I did get the impression that he didn’t like the National Tournaments. I could be totally wrong here and this is in no way meant to demean Cael, but that is the feel I got from his response to our conversation.

Danny Hodge - If you don’t know who he is you are probably new to the sport, he is known of simply as The Legend of Wrestling – I was a unique conversation with Danny. We spoke some about a mutual friend’s son who actually made the decision to wrestle for his school instead of at TN this year, by the way he normally wrestles for both. For this kid it meant giving up the Trinity Award and quite possibly the United States Cliff Keen Wrestler of the Year. While we both respected the decision our friend and his son had made, we both felt saddened because it is likely one of the only times that this boy would ever be able to receive this type of recognition and the competition would have definitely been much tougher. While we both respected the boy and the decision he made, we both felt he should have wrestled Tulsa Nationals.

Mike,
I thought long and hard if I should reply to this subject again but in the end decided to give it one last try. Not because I believe I'm going to convince you and I know you aren't going to convince me but rather I can't leave people to believe that what you say I said in any way represents my thoughts or opinions.
I have a real problem when people take my posts out of context on bulletin boards but you take that to new levels by the following:
"just don’t shake your finger in my face or threaten me". When did I do either of these? I find it odd that I had the same debate with wrestlemom and while we may not agree she didn't attempt to twist my meanings or seem threatened by my opinions. Why is it you and martialarts refuse to do the same?
"Debate is a vital part of life, when that retorts to he said she said, or what seems to be personal attacks then that is off base. Again, Sportsfan02 if I am wrong here let me know.". Again where are the personal attacks? You seem to enjoy debate as long as the other person agrees with you and YES you are wrong!
As to your conversations with the Seay, Monday, Sanderson, and Hodge I leave you with this, "It was interesting that when possible all thought that when possible that kids should wrestle both for club and school". We are fortunate here in Kansas that our kids do have the opportunity to do both. Just because your school doesn't and you refuse to address this on a local level is not my concern. By the way I DO know who Danny Hodge is so I guess I'm not a newcomer to this sport. But it is nice to know that I am in such good company regarding my thoughts!
"I challenge you to tell me one place where I have referred to Kansas wrestling or anything about Kansas as backwards". All one has to do is scroll back up to the top of this subject and read your posts about how this state is behind others because we don't allow students to compete in outside competitions once the student begins practice. Holding us up in comparison to Oklahoma or any other state is really not fair. All states are unique so a blanket policy simply doesn't work for all. I guess I would feel better about your positive comments regarding Kansas wrestling if they weren't normally countered by a previous criticism.
As to your offer to contact you via email or offline sorry but I decline. I assure you many people who I know and respect on this board have my email addy and we interact both via email and in person at various wrestling events. I might add we sometimes disagree on a wide range of subjects but we don't feel the need to "clear up" any areas of disagreement. Mike I have no doubt you are a nice guy or at least I have no evidence otherwise and have never said anything to the contrary. As to my not buying your "BS" about Oklahoma I simply don't see that as an insult. Alot of us nice guys "BS" about a wide variety of subjects. Those that know me will tell you I have been known to do so myself. I must however refuse the offer for dinner. After consulting with friends who said I "might be easy but not cheap", I'm holding out for a nice bottle of wine and theatre tix.

Gee Mike, maybe I should find something to argue about with you. I could go for some MD 20-20 (or Boones Farm), dinner and a movie at Warren Old Town!!

You guys are killing me?

I don't have time to read all this? :rolleyes:

I'm suppossed to Moderate this stuff but I don't have time.

COACHJT...PLEASE CUT THEM OFF!!!! THIS POST HAS GOTTEN COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND AND OFF SUBJECT. THEY SOUND LIKE TWO BICKERING SISTERS.

But at least we aren't YELLING at each other! Besides that is why we let JT and Juby split the profits from this website.

As a middle school wrestling coach I think that there is one thing that has not been addressed. If middle school wrestling has the image of novice wrestling than it is fair to say that kids wrestling is also inferior. How many out-of-shape dads scream at their kids to do the long sit out over and over and over.

Then, if some of these kids come to the middle school or high school they hold on to the bad habits that their dads, I mean "coaches" have taught them.

I understand that there are a few outstanding wrestlers that only get competition at national tournys, but most kids will get competition. I have seen it time and time again that Dad is worried that it will be too easy and then the kid gets beat a few times.

I also think that wrestling for your school, in front of the student body, even cheerleaders makes wrestling a little more enjoyable and meaningful. I agree with sportsfan02 in the sense that this sport has so much more to offer other than being a great wrestler. Leadership skills, responsibility, teamwork are a few things. I mean come on parents, who enjoys those tournies more, you or your kids. Do you want your child to be burned out like many wrestlers become. Think of the friendships that they can make in their own state and city. And believe it or not, miraculously, some of those poor middle school wrestlers will catch your kid even after traveling the country making a name for themselves. I think maybe dad is not ready to stop coaching (besides he knows best).

As for the KHSHAA rule, I would say that each student needs to determine their loyalty. Their school and team, or themself. Another good lesson to learn.