In a previous post it was stated:

The lesson learned is it is not a fundamental right to participe in KSHSAA activities.

I guess the real question then is why not??? We must pay taxes on the property we own which goes to support our schools. It is not voluntary. In fact, if you do not, you lose the property at a tax auction. Accordingly, if your child is eligible to participate in sports based upon his/grades and behavior then I would say it is a right to participate. You have paid for this right and earned it. Why does an organization have the right to TELL anyone what their kid can do away from school on a Sunday afternoon as long as it is legal?? Where does it stop? Will kids be told they cannot lift weights in the off season?

There are rule changes that need to be made. A Freshman can practice with Seniors, but a 8th grader cannot practice with a Freshman. Does this make sense. Attending clinics away from school on off time is nothing more than an effort to improve in a sport the same way lifting weights and running are.

I think we all recognize a need for rules, but any rule should be based upon 'what is best for the kids' and not on holding some back so the rest can look better in their mediocrity.

This forum is an excellent place to exchange ideas. That is what is happening. To tell someone that if they want their kid to be the best they should move to another state doesn't appear to meet the idea of this forum. Maybe by exchanging ideas on this forum some good will be done. I doubt it, but at least some are voicing a need for change. As change will have to be based upon a grass roots effort, this is as good of way as any.

Remember there are four things that come not back: The spoken word, The spent arrow, The past life, And the neglected opportunity.

Among loving to watch wrestling I am a avid hunter - There is also a saying "Take your kid hunting, and you will spend less time hunting your kid" This can work with anything in life a child enjoys, letting a kid take every chance to sign up and get involved in something he enjoy's to better himself is by no means any type of disadvantage for the others, the disadvantage has already taken place years before high school when the one kid decided he did not just want to wrestle but be the best he could be in his sport with people maybe not reconizing them by their face, but their name is well known . Not just kids but anybody even adults when deprived of being able to do the things they really enjoy, allows them to look for other interests that occupy their time, and sometimes with things that do not have a positive impact on them, their family's, their friends, or their school.

And as far as sports being a past-time and education the future of the world I don't thing for one minute anyone in their right mind would disagree. But when a young high school athlete has a well educated teacher with years of college making "chump change" and a half-ass professional sports figure making mega bucks - with our nations top colleges paying coaches millions a year and a professor making a small fration of this we have already gone far beyond a over night fix putting education back on top in some athletic young peoples eyes. The only way to get all that back in check is for eveyone to stop watching, buying tickets, or attending any of these events. Even Wal-Mart with no shoppers would be nothing more than a empty building.

But back to the original issue the KSHSAA rules, and a D-1 college wrestling program in Kansas. For the KSHSAA I believe there is to many factors in the equation at this time that will not make anyone happy in the short term - 1) They would drag their feet so that by the time change is made none of us in this discussion would really care. 2) And no matter what is done it will be too much for some, and not enough for others. There are allot of other angles to look at also. But for the D-1 issue as I said earlier about opportunity should I say Minnesota, Ohio, Nebraska for a few and I'm sure I left out some, and there is more to come. Has maybe just passed on a very near future National Championship with Kansas home grown men.

RJohnson

Mr. Johnson,

I totally agree with everything you have to say. Regardless, should we turn away from a problem that needs to be addressed just because our own kids will not benefit? I hope not.

As far as Mr. 5611 posts, where is he now? Instead of joining up and helping combat the obvious problem he chooses to ridicule me by misquoting a private conversation on a public forum. There will not be a future opportunity for this to happen as I have conducted my last conversation over the phone or alone with Mr. Two Faced, 5611 posts, Know-it-all, arrogant, pariah Salyer.

"Obvious" to whom? I've seen no proof that we in Kansas have a problem "obvious" or not. Now I see plenty of conjecture but no evidence to back up those opinions.


Surely if true, a faulty memory shouldn't be considered as wrong and classless as posting another person's private messages to a public board!

Sport0,

Here is a public message on a public board. You have NOTHING positive to contribute ever. Maybe you once did but not now. You continue to attack my comments but offer nothing to help wrestling. Why don't you log off and watch tv? Maybe you can use your spare time to figure out how to play with Richard.

There is NOTHING classless about posting an email from the KSHSAA's leader which clarifies their policy. Sport0, you are truly an idiot and that is most likely the reason why you choose not to expose your identity.

That wasn't the example I was thinking of, but now that you mention it.


I might be, but this "idiot" knows enough not to post private messages to a public board without the prior consent of the original author.

What are you talking about? If you send me a private message I don't have to have your permission to do anything with it. If you don't want something published then don't write it. You have just further confirmed that you are an idiot. I am done with you and your negative posts. Every time I try to inspire feedback for change and rally those in favor you jump in with nothing useful to say. I wish we could resolve this with the Western Kansas Alternative Dispute Resolution method but I am quite sure you aren't worth my time or energy.

Does this mean you won't be getting back to me with the evidence of problems within Kansas high school wrestling?

This thread started out very good and has some very good points on both sides of the issue. After reading these posts I think the crux of the problem with the rules are pretty simple....

Freedom of Choice.

As with anything you will always have some kids that want to train all the time and strive to be the best they can be. On the other hand you will also have kids that don't take wrestling that serious and want to be the best they can be during the wrestling season. The problem with the KSHSAA rule as I see it is that it limits and restricts the kids who have made the choice to do all the extra work. I think that the focus should be what is best for the kids and that means less restrictive in my book. In this case I agree with Will.

Now the issue that was raised about education and wrestling or other sports....I guess I need someone to define education for me. Wrestling and other sports have provided me with some of the best education I have ever received. Now don't get me wrong, the ACADEMIC Education is very important and I won't argue that it needs to be the priority. What I don't agree with is the idea that ACADEMIC Education replace or be the only means of education for our wrestlers. This sport more than any sport I ever played teaches us life lessons that can be applied every day. Wrestling and other sports should be looked at as educational tools just like math class, reading, etc. They are all tools that can be used to do the following....

1. Achieve a college education
2. Produce productive, hardworking, goal setting members of society.

Which leads to the other part of this thread that I think is a travesty.....2 of the best college education opportunities in the country reside here in KS (KSU & KU). Yet, student athletes that are wrestlers don't have an opportunity to gain those educations if they want to also wrestle.

I applaud Erik Hinkley and his efforts to create change at the collegiate level! Likewise, I applaud Will's efforts for trying to create change at the high school level.

Both have the best interests of the kids at the heart of their argument.

Shawn Budke

Finally some potential changes to KSHSAA rules that we all could support......

Arkansas Activities Association Discusses Public/Private Differences

By Bob Herman

In an effort to help alleviate differences between public and nonpublic high schools in Arkansas, the Arkansas Activities Association (AAA) holds meetings biannually to discuss the issues between the two parties. The most recent meeting occurred October 9, and the next is scheduled for March 5.

"There was never any communication between the two administrative groups," AAA Executive Director Lance Taylor said. "(These meetings) have been very beneficial."

Taylor said that public schools think private schools have a distinct advantage in state championships, and that's the root of the public/private issue.

"Nonpublic schools were winning a lot of state championships, and that became a problem (between the two groups)," Taylor said. "There are about 500 members in the AAA, and about 25 are nonpublic. They make up seven percent of our membership, but they're winning 38 to 39 percent of our state championships. We've worked hard to try to establish rules and policies to make sure we have a level playing field."

One of those policies was a multiplier for private schools. A multiplier was the three-year enrollment average of 10th- to 12th-grade students multiplied by 1.35 (and later 1.75). Hypothetically, a private high school with about 400 students would be classified like a high school of 540 students. However, starting in 2008, the multiplier will be discontinued, and the private schools will instead be simply bumped up one classification.

"The multiplier moved some nonpublic schools up two classifications, and some didn't move up at all," said Mike McSpadden, assistant superintendant of the Alma (Arkansas) School District. "The governing body in our schools felt that simply moving the nonpublic schools up one class was fairer."
These meetings began last year, and the most recent one further discussed details and initiatives that had been passed in the spring.

Although the AAA distinctly holds these discussions, public and private issues are universal across the United States.

"I don't think this is a problem that is unique to Arkansas," McSpadden said. "There is contention between public and nonpublic schools, and there is initiative by the AAA staff to try and bring these two groups to the table."

McSpadden also explained that the meetings help set up a stronger relationship between the administrators, who don't convene frequently.

"It's been a great and positive thing for our state," McSpadden said. "Many of our nonpublic school members don't attend the same school meetings as the public schools, so there hasn't been much relationship-building between the administration at nonpublic and public schools. Public school administrators always see each other at other education meetings, but nonpublic administrators only see each other at athletic events.

"The more opportunities for these two to meet together, the better it'll be for the future."

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2007/12/in_the_news__decemberjanuary.aspx

I appreciate your passion Will, and respect your right to protest, but I you are in a very vocal minority here, and KSHSAA is here for the majority.

You have the right, as a parent, to move your family if you don't like the way things are being done where you are. Or, you have the right not to have your children participate in KSHSAA sponsored sports and get them private training. But if you choose not to do those things, you live within the rules.

St. James Academy can have that clinic because they aren't members of KSHSAA. The aren't bound by the same rules the rest of us are, but then again they can't compete for State championships. That was the choice they made.

KSHSAA works at the behest of the members schools. The rules are recommended by member schools and get approval of the KSHSAA Board of Control. It's not just Gary Musselman and Rick Bowden sitting in Topeka trying to figure out how to screw everyone. They have thousands of young athletes in this state they have to serve and they are doing what is best for the vast majority.

I agree with Sport0 in the idea that I can't figure out what is so wrong. Most of the rules we compete under in Kansas are the same ones that they compete in in other states. And as I pointed out earlier, with our weigh-in rules and travel rules, we are luckier than many states.

The high school season is what three-and-a-half/four months? After that you can travel all you want and live under whatever rules you want. But instead of raging against what it appears the majority of the wrestling community and schools in the state want, why don't you work within the system and be an agent of change the right way?

The worst thing about living in a democracy is that when you're in the minority, you lose.

Maybe you would be amazed to know you don't know what you are talking about!

St.James had nothing to do with the clinic except that the facility was used to host it. NO St. James athletes were in attendance because St. James Academy is a member of the KSHSAA. Their teams compete for state championships (their girls volleyball team finished 2nd in 4A without a senior class!) and my son will do so as well.

Maybe I am in the minority and so are you. The majority is comprised of those who are apathetic. The AD's, board members and others who make up the voting membership of the KSHSAA are more interested in football and basketball. Wrestling is an afterthought. Do you really think Rick Bowden was doing his job to your satisfaction when he failed to negotiate a venue to keep the state championships in one place? Do you really think it makes sense that a Kansas athlete cannot compete in the best wrestling tournaments in the country because of travel restrictions? If you do maybe you thought Stalin was a great leader. The KSHSAA is not a democracy in the truest sense. I guarantee you that the majority of wrestling parents wish the rules were different and that they could have a say or even a vote. Once again you and Sport0 are very wrong in stating that are rules are similiar to those in most states. The KSHSAA is one of the most restrictive organizations in the country. Just check our bordering states. OK and CO both permit coaches to coach year round, athletes to compete in independent tournaments during the season, allow more travel and matches as well.

I am living within the rules but as a taxpayer and registered voter I have the right to fight for a change. That is how our country started (just in case you forgot or you have been too busy studying the advocacy of socialistic practices). I merely posted to get some feedback from some educate responders not realizing that the uneducated zealots would attack my ideas. You show me where I have raged or lived outside of the rules... You need to back off and find your own cause to support. I am not convinced you are in the majority but you have the right to your opinion but you need to educate yourself before you come after me. What have you done to positively impact wrestling? How much of your money have you spent? How much of your time have you given? I guess we will never know because you and Sport0 are cowards who choose to blab but not disclose their identity. You and Sport0 can move too. Move to another country where everything you do is controled by a government agency.

By the way, you would be surprised how much power and influence Gary and Rick have. When was the last time you talked to someone who has sat on the board?

Will, I stand corrected on St. James....I was thinking about the wrong school, and I apologize for that.

And for the record, I'm not coming after you. I was simply stating my opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way. And as for my contribution to wrestling it's been lifelong, positive and nothing I need to defend to you. But if you notice, I haven't called anyone an idiot or a coward, and if that's your best defense for your position, I feel badly for you.

I hope you have a wonderful New Year.

Mr.Cokeley, I am not sure what you are exactly asking KSHSAA to change, but from what I have read on this thread, you are asking the state to let the schools with money in their budget to be allowed better competition than those schools that don't have money. It costs $30 to play every sport at our school. When you have 2 that play all sports, and 1 other child in grade school it adds up.

Please, tell me - How would your rule in going to wherever the "best" competition was benefit all classes, and all schools?
We at this point have to pay for rooms when we go to regionals.

Sorry, but think that you only want what is best for yours'.

I however would truly love to see a D-1 wrestling team in this state. It is long overdue.

So Bubba, what you are saying that is since your school can't afford or doesn't want to do things to get better lets make some rules so that no one else can either... Yes, that is the problem. The best get better and everyone else has to work harder to keep up. That is what America is all about. When you start introducing socialism into a capitalist environment you get failure see General Motors, Ford Motor Company, and Chrysler. You want rules to hold down those willing to do what it takes so those who aren't can keep up. If we don't work to improve we won't need a D-1 program unless you want to fill it with wrestler from OH, PA, or CA. The ONLY kids who get D-1 notice from Kansas are those who wrestle in the summer because our state high school system is failing. I am sure you won't agree but that is the way I see it. Furthermore, the changes I wish for and work for will never be in place in time to help my son so that selfish line of bull is not accurate.

I have a seven year old and I whole heartedly agree with Will. I think that it is terrible that even though our middle school does not have a meet on the weekend of Tulsa, our wrestlers can not compete there. When Tony Purler comes to Valley Center our High School and Middle School kids can not participate. These are things I hope will change before I have to make the choice on what to do. Right now my plan is to apply for another Social Security card for Jacob and use his other identity to wrestle on the weekends during middle school and high school season. We will have to also use the new identity to attend clinics provided by Tony Purler and Eric Akin. So Will, I applaud you and hope that some of these changes come to pass.

Will,

I did not intend to sound like we should turn our back on change if it did not benefit our kids. I for one I'm for change if someone can benefit from it. Not to knock any current coaches but we all know we have some out there doing nothing more than picking up a few extra bucks to coach a team, and has nothing to offer to make any of his wrestlers better - That is where outside training comes in. Outside training is not a disadvantange to others if you send 10 kids to the same training you get 10 different things from it and as a whole you make the entire team better, being able to learn from each other in their own training room. If availble outside training teaches how to properly execute a move thus cutting down on injury's. My problem with the KSHSAA rule on attending a camp/training during the same sport while on a school team is you can hire a 1 on 1 trainer for your kid but as a whole the MAJORITY cannot benefit from a camp? I might be stupid but that kind of saying if you have deep pockets your kid can receive all the extra benefits you want. So where is the best interest that the KSHSAA say's they have in the best interest for athletes as a whole?


The following is the position the KSHSAA has on the importance of activities:

A strong activities program can and should complement a school's academic program. A well-balanced activites program provides the opportunity for physical, social and emotional development complementing intellectual growth. Participation in school activities encompasses all students without regard to sex, race, or creed and teaches that it is a privilege and an honor to represent one's school. Interscholastic activities constitute a part of the right kind of "growing up" experiences for students. Participants learn to accept success and failures, gain poise and confidence, achieve tolerance and understanding of others and gain the self-satisfaction of accomplishing goals. Under a well administered school program, students and spectators become better citizens through participation and observation of activities conducted under established rules.
It is the duty of the member schools, through their Activities Association, to maintain an appropriated balance between the academic and activities program offered.

Any time someone gives their time to teaching our young people thus coaching, or putting on a training camp at no MATTER what time of the year it may fall, or in what sport. The KSHSAA should endorse it with open arms, and support schools, parents, and athletes who want to take part of this in any way. In a way supporting their very own Posistion Statement helping to make these kids better people in all aspects of life. And as far as being able to be active in a event outside the school if not a direct conflict with the school already established schedule they should be proud that these kids represent the state of Kansas outside its boundries, to show the others what Kansas has produced and has to offer, also helping our kids past High School to be noticed more on the National level.

Ronnie Johnson

As I read this, one of the only things I can think of was several years ago when we had a clinic of numerous NCAA Wrestlers, All-Americans and the like to raise funds for Tyler Graebner, even Dan Hodge was there to speak to the kids and tell some of his stories. Not only were HS wrestlers not allowed to participate, help or be instructed, we couldn't even let them attend and sit in the stands to watch, and meet Danny Hodge or many others they had looked up to for years. IMHO the rules that prevented that, even the observing of the clinic and meeting Mr. Hodge was too much.

June 18, 1873 - Susan B. Anthony was fined $100.00 for ATTEMPTING to vote for a United States President "2008" Now there is a possibility of having our first women President.

Things do change with time. Maybe its time to stop pushing the same rules we had even before girls where allowed to wrestle in HS.

I do not understand the rules concerning the rights of athletes to be able to practice, compete, or train during their own personal time. I am not in a fiancial position to send my son to all of the camps out there but I dont think that should be a concerning factor in what other parents are able to do with their children. As I have stated we now live in PA and there were numerous holiday camps for kids of all ages to attend. I personally think this is great for the future of the sport and the kids themselves. Also if there is only one kid that can make the camp does that not also mean that whoever that kids wrestles at practice also benefit from that same camp. That was just a little deductive reasoning. I applaude Will and Beeson for wanting to make RULE CHANGES to give kansas wrestlers better oppertunities in their future. We loved the state of kansas and did not move for wrestling issues, but after learning of all these stupid guidelines I am glad we are back in PA.

Just an opinion don't freak out

Mike Pirl