it's Friday night around 8:30p.m. What's the point of track wrestling if a person can't view what wrestlers are in the tournament. I'm not worried about the brackets just wanted to see who signed up.

It's how the tournament director set it up, not trackwrestling.com. You can view Goddard.

I can't view Goddard...any suggestions...I definately am not ruling out operator error on my part.

Each tournament Director controls the ability to release that information to the public.

Trackwrestling allows that information to be viewed if released by the Director.

I know that some Directors do not release the information too early because they do not want to deal with phone calls from parents who view the entries then try to change their wrestlers weights.

In smaller tournaments they may have to combine brackets after weigh-ins have completed and scratches have been removed. It is easier to wait until weigh-ins are finsihed before releasing the information.

I hope this helps...

OK, Goddard is the 4th tournament I have been to that used Track Wrestling. Started 1 1/2 hours late. Only one tournament using this system started within 30 of the start time. I don't need to hear excuses why Track wrestling is not working, I need results...I'm awful worried about the qualifiers.

why?

Both Paola and Rossville started within 15 min of when the flyer stated. We did not go to Goddard today, but I bet it was due to the system not being used correctly. It could be that they decided to print brackets the night before, if they have a bunch of changes the day of, it will mess things up. I have worked a few of the tournaments that have used track wrestling and we are using it for our novice tourney.

I really don’t think this is a major issue. Tournaments have been starting more or less on time for years. Those that have had a late start usually deal with the “day of” tournament problems the best they can.

Most of the delays are due to scratches and the ability to manage them. Track wrestling gives any tournament using it a competitive advantage in this area…if it is ran properly. Other than Subs; scratches will not be a major issue for the other tournaments in the championship series.

With any new system there are always going to be growing problems. I have been to four tournaments this year that used the trackwreslting.com advantage. Of those Rossville and Paola did the best job running the system…almost to perfection. While the other two tournaments got a late start, it was not anything out of the ordinary to what happened in the past with pencil and paper. Come to think about it…that equates to ½ of the tournaments starting on time. That percentage isn’t that different from what I would have expected with tournaments run with pencil and paper. Both of the tournaments that started late this year using the trackwrestling.com advantage, ran well after the first whistle and quickly made up the ground lost to delay. Today’s tournament my club attended started about 45 minutes late and I was still in my truck on the way to the house at 3:30. I don’t think that is bad for 400+ entry tournament.

In life when you are in a boat that may be taking on a little water you can either sit and get your feet wet or you can grab a pail and start bailing water. I applaud the tournaments that have jumped in and are working the bugs out of this new system…thank you for bailing the water for those who want to complain about wet feet. Hopefully with all of the experience gained along the way we won’t have anything to fret over when it comes to the qualifying tournaments. Just one man’s opinion…

Mark, I agree that the use of the computer programs has been delayed far too long and it is the future, but there is much about this trackwrestling that never passed the smell test with me.
We were told that one of the reasons we didn't use the older existing programs was the inability to open the program once the tournament had been seeded. Now we find out that trackwrestling has the same problem and may in fact be one in the same as the older programs in use by the high schools.
We then forced the program on the qualifiers without properly working out the kinks at a state tournament first.
I disagree with you about scratches not being a problem at qualifiers. Most years in the 16U class they can be plentiful.
I agree with Mr. Beeson, it matters little to the clubs and parents if the problems are hardware, software or operator generated.

sportsfan02,
I am not sure I understand your comment about "not being able to open the program once the tournament has been seeded".

I have investigated, researched, and used many different types or wrestling software.

It is my opinion that without a doubt Trackwrestling is the best wrestling software on the market.

From my experience with the software it is my belief that the issues that have risen because clubs are not willing to modify in any facet of the way the manage their tournament and they are not leveraging the really wonderful tools that exist within the system.

One of the major examples of this is the production of brackets prior to weigh-ins. Trackwrestling highly discourages making brackets public or building them prior to the completion of weigh-ins.

Trackwrestling offers to its users the ability to print weigh-in cards that should be utilized to verify every wrestler that has weighed-in.

When we used the system at our tournament, we simply took all the weigh-in cards into our coaches meeting and read them off to verify all scratches. From the time we left the meeting it took our club less than 30 minutes to: Remove wrestlers, Assign Bracket Types, Build Brackets, Assign Brackets to Mats, Assign Bout Numbers, Print Brackets, and have bout sheets at the table.

If I would have known that we were going to use the system early enough, I would have set weigh-ins to start and end 30 minutes earlier, which would have allowed us an extra 30 minutes to get ready. But that is the only thing I would have done differently.

One of the best tools of Trackwrestling is the ability to balance mats. The system allows you to assign brackets to mats in a method that ensures that all mats have approximately the same ammount of wrestling time assined to them.

I think it would be unfair to place a negative label on Trackwrestling. If the software is used as designed I believe it is a wonderful product and I could not say enough good things about it.

Sincerely

Steven Foster

Sportsfan02, I think I did acknowledge the problem with scratches at Subs in my statement above. However, those problems are diminished ten-fold at the district tournaments and a hundred-fold by the State tourney.

From my observations, this software has delivered as the developers promised. As stated by previous posters and verified with the folks at Track Wrestling, turning “off” the ability to pre-view every detail of how the tournament is bracketed is a decision made at the tournament level. It is no different than tournaments operating in the pencil/paper world making that decision now…or the decision made to post results after tournament completion every weekend. Each tournament director has their own thoughts on these two issues. The trackwrestling.com advantage is only a tool; it is a tool not unlike the pencil and paper used previous to it.

Step back and ask why some tournaments made the choices that they have about opening up the information link to all of “us”. I think that it is quite possibly that all of “us” may not be used to having the information. Now the conversation that you heard around brackets on Saturday morning is taking place on Wednesday afternoon. Johnny should be in the B bracket. Jimmy needs to be in a different weight class because his “path” to the finals would be easier or in some cases harder. Why is my little Joie only seeded 3rd …because “everyone” knows that he beat the 2nd seed last week in tofarfromanywhere, USA? I know you have all heard these conversations and many have engaged in these conversations. Heck I will admit that I have been guilty myself. Now imagine 10% making calls to the tournament director requesting a change. This is only one of the kinks that we are working through with this valuable tool. Right or wrong sometimes too much information corrupts our thought from preparing our young wrestlers for the path ahead and switches attention on preparing the path for our young wrestlers.

All this being said, trackwrestling.com is a tool used to manage tournament entries; from seeding to bracketing and wrestler advancement through the bracket. As with most useful computer applications, its uses can and should be scalable for the job at hand. It should not be a “one size fits all” application. At present some of the tournaments using it have not chosen to use the pre-viewing option; this does not diminish all of the other practical uses that this application has afforded those who have used it.

I understand the frustration with not “starting” on time…believe me I have been there questioning “why” it just can’t work. However, I have learned to lighten up over the years and to cut those hosting the events slack on the start times listed. I will say that it has been a long time since I have been caught up in a 1 ½ hour wait…I think that would try even the most quiet nerves out there. But you have a choice as to where you go each week. If a tournament doesn’t have enough volunteers, or they over sell their venue, or are just plain incompetent (all of which have little to do with trackwrestling.com) then I would suggest taking your money someplace else next year. The good thing about the state of wrestling in our region is that there are usually 2-3 options within a short drive.

The laws of capitalism and the free market system really do work!

Track wrestling had nothing to do with starting late today. The issue with starting late, was due to the fact that there seem to be so many club directors or secretaries or whomever is turning in the kids ages and weights, that don't put the correct age or weight on the entry sheets.
It never seems to amaze me, how many parents go to the head table to yell at the tournament operators, when 95% of the time, the err that they are complaining about was sent in that way. Tournaments can only operate on the information sent to them by the clubs submitting it. However, as any of you that have ever run a tournament know, that is never an exuse as the tournament is always wrong, never the parents or the person that turned in their entry. (on that note), I do want to say that after having words with one of those parents, they were very gracious to come back and apologize when they were shown the entry that actually came in. We appreciate that, it takes a lot sometimes to do that.
As for track wrestling..... they advised us several.. several times not to make or print brackets ahead of time. However, given parents responses in the past to not having brackets, we printed them anyway. We didn't have any issues with this, and in fact it isn't as big of an issue as people think. There is a lock out "freeze" function, that locks all of the bout numbers. Once you change a bracket, it resets the numbers to a ?, it is very easy to then go back in and only renumber those brackets changed, not the entire tournament or mat.
Printing brackets ahead of time, was not the issue with starting late. It was a combination of factors, that any tournament that has ever ran has faced. Wrong age, weights, and rankings on kids, and those that didn't make weight or show up that we had to scratch to make sure kids could wrestle.
Little known to parents and anyone else that doesn't actually run the tournament, there are tons of issues that tournaments face. We were up til 2:30 last night and up at 5:30 this morning to get things done. During this we made over 25 changes to weights and ages and rankings that we reprinted on blue paper to note the changes. This morning we had another 8-10 kids come in that were entered incorrectly. We could have started on time, however we chose to try and accomodate those with these issues of being sent in incorrectly. IF we hadn't and we had just said tough luck,.. then you would be writing about us saying how big of jerks we were for not making adjustments for just this ONE kid.
Why is it that we always read about how terrible a tournament runs, and we read about all of the problems, however, I seldom see posts like.... Hey, thanks for taking care of us and getting us in the correct spot...even though it wasn't your fault. Many tournaments only make changes if they actually make the mistake.
There are many thoughts and options for using this system, Friday night weigh ins only, absolutely NO changes.. period. We could do this for hours. Bottom line is,.. it wasn't the computer system. We have done this several ways, and this was by far the easiest. IF anyone is planning on using this in the future, I would be more then happy to help and answer questions, all you have to do is ask.
As for not posting entries on line. This was exactly as mentioned above... we learned from Douglass that the moment they posted the list, they started getting phone calls to move little Johny up a weight because he couldn't make the weight. "bottom line, truth be told, most of the calls were because little Johny couldn't beat the kids at the original weight.
We didn't want or anticipate to start late either, but you end up just having to make a choice? Do you accomodate people, or do we hold steady and tell them tough luck. We'll never have the correct answers, and someone will always complain no matter which way you go.
Best of luck to evers turn it is to get yelled at next week.

OK...I had decided to just keep my mouth shut, but your post made me change my mind. I guess I need to be one to thank you guys for being so "accomodating." Here it goes.

Thank you for the great job you did on both of my boys brackets. You had enough entries to have 43A-43D brackets (4 brackets total)and my boy ended up getting a 3 man round-robin. Thanks for the two matches, the fact that the first one started at 2:30, the fact that the second was at 4:45 and the fact that we had to stay another hour and fifteen minutes for the final match (and there were only 3 matches total for the bracket) to be completed so that we could get our bracket and medal.

Thanks also for accomodating my older boys' bracket. It started as a 6-man double elimination and after two scratches, you left it as a 4-man double elimination bracket. You refused to change it to a round-robin so that these boys could each have 3 matches. The Mulvane coaches asked, we asked, and the other two boys probably asked too (not sure), but you gave everyone a firm "we're not changing anything."

On a note that didn't concern my boys or even our team, I thought your comments last night at weigh-ins showed how accomodating you were with the Ark City boy. You took a 37 pound kid and placed him in a 43 lb "A" bracket. You had 2 - 37 lb brackets (4 man RR, and a 5 man RR), but refused to move him to the 4 man RR bracket. Your response to him was "we can move a kid as far as 15 pounds", which is incorrect (2 weight classes is what you are permitted to move) and again shows how "accomodating" you guys were trying to be. I heard you threaten to throw the kids' dad out for trying to get his kid in the right bracket and then, after all of that, this morning he was moved to where he should have been all along.

I understand some of the problems that are faced when putting on a tournament as I have helped bracket, re-bracket, etc. in the past. I can live with a late start and can appreciate the fact that there are problems/issues that can arise that will cause delays. But for you to come on here acting like you bent over backwards to help everyone is rediculous. I heard complaints all day long about the brackets and the fact that most kids got very few matches. However, the biggest reason why we won't attend your tournament again was the crappy attitude that I saw being shown at least 3 different times towards parents and/or coaches and was probably shown to many more people that I didn't witness. The good news is that next year you will probably only have 1/2 to 2/3 the number of entries to "accomodate."

I'd say that sums it up nicely!

Goddard had a great tourney.......Yes 1 1/2 hour late start was rediculous.....But take the compitision that was there, was it not worth the wait?? I saw a lot of top ranked matches all day long from the little guys to the big guys.....Barring all the headaches isn't that what all clubs want to see is the best match you can get?? Nice job Goddard, a little long, but well worth the wait..

For another perspective on Track Wrestling, I have found this program to be a wonderful tool. I have been able to keep up with many tournaments that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to otherwise. Of the three tournaments my son has been in this year, only one has used the Track Wrestling format. I look forward to the day when all tournaments use this or a similar program so that people who are in my shoes have the ability to feel like they are following the events in real time.

My son is wrestling in his seventh year and my wife and I are very strong supporters of our son, his team, and youth wrestling. I have spent more time with him during this part of the year between practices and tournaments, both as a father and a coach, than any other time during the year. The four months of the Kids Federation season allows our family to spend a tremendous amount of quality time together. We have that common bond that so many of us in the sport of wrestling are fortunate to share.

Without making my comments into a paper back novel, let me get to my point. I have been deployed since mid summer and have seen my family once (the exception being internet video camera calls which I highly recommend to all families that don't see each other in person much during the year) since then. I knew that being away from them was going to be very difficult at best. I also knew that being gone during the wrestling season was going to be a hardship on my wife (we have four boys) and an additional challenge for my son that wrestles. And for me, let me put it this way, I spend the other eight months out of the year looking forward to this time of year.

The bottom line is, I would be overjoyed to be at a tournament with my family, watching my son wrestle, coaching and being around the other kids on our team, even if that meant waiting an additional hour or so for it to start. In the meantime, I have to take what I can get, and being able to watch tournaments unfold online in near real time from half way around the world, is a wonderful thing.

Hello,

I ran the software at the Manhattan – Little Apple Classic. I think the software is great, did everything we needed it to do. I worked hard to know the software and even went down to Valley Center to watch them run the software ( thanks Steve, it really helped ). The software is very flexible, will let you setup your Tournament just about anyway you want.

We had lots of the same problems Goddard had... We accommodated the corrections and made sure everyone who attended got matches, no matter what it took.

We got started later than I had hoped for. We had 45 scratches. We had all the things you have to do when this happens. How long would it have taken if we would have done this by hand. Once I deleted the no-shows, re-seeded the brackets, it took me 5 minutes till I was printing brackets and bout sheets.

Here was my only problem with the software.....at 8:15 I delete the no-shows, I created the tournament, I printed off the Wall Brackets with Bout #'s, then the “Team Bout Schedule” so the teams would now where there kids where wrestling, then the first couple of bouts for some mats.....everything going great so far....then coaches kept coming up saying there kids where not on the “Team Bout Schedule”, especially the 14U's. PANIC!!! – something is wrong.

I called Track Wrestling, Justin answers the phone, we go over a few things, he shows me everything is correct. CONFIDENCE IS RESTORED!!!! I moved back into the go mode and we went on.

I don't like the “Team Bout Schedule”. I understand why now the report provides the info like it does, but I still don't like it. Example - It does not print a wrestler if certain condition exist, like if a wrestler has a first round bye in a 8-man bracket ( the reason several people came up and said they had wrestlers missing from the report). I wish it would say something like “Round 1 BYE”, or “In a X-Bracket – Bout still to be determined”, just something instead of just nothing.

I had to fix only 2 brackets that caused me a few duplicate bout #'s.

We did create brackets the night before, knowing only a few would change, then we had 45 scratches. To post or not to post early wall brackets seems like a no win situation. If you don't put them up, everyone is screaming, if you do put them up everyone is upset because they changed. We all seem to try to do the best we can.

I really think that the more we all use the software and share our experience with other Tournaments we will all gain from it. With Valley Center letting me come down and get in the way while watching how they ran the software was a huge help. I gained experience from what I saw and learned. It helped our tournament.

In an ideal world, we would have a 2 week deadline before the tournament and a Friday evening weigh-in only. That would give us HOURS and HOURS to fix all the problems, and print correct wall brackets. Now to the real world we all live in.

We choose to use the software because we will be using it at Sub-District. You can't compare the experience you gain from actually being behind the keyboard with 500 wrestler waiting to get started. I did mock tournament over and over to prepare for all they situations that might come up. Nothing is the same as real experience. Our Sub-District will ( ok, should ) go even better. Our workers have experience now, I have experience, and we will continue to learn from everyone else.

A few things about Sub-District.....You can't compare the two types / style tournaments. At Sub we will know all the wrestlers and there weight class well before hand. We can't combine brackets, or move wrestlers right before we start to wrestling. All wrestlers will be seeded. The software should really shine at these events( if the operators fully understand how to use it ).

To Summarize: I really like the software. It was easy to run. The support was great. I would recommend – no questions asked.

I think we sacrificed some time at the beginning of our tournament in favor of accuracy, and getting as many wrestlers more matches, but gained time at the end of the tournament by having the metals and 1st place brackets done quickly.

Jim Lund
Little Apple Classic - MOKWC

We went to Burlington today and I have to say that this was an absolute wonderfully ran tourney, and they did not use track wrestling! I also went to Rossville where they did use track wrestling and that was a wonderfully ran tourney as well! I did like the fact that Rossville was able to refresh the wall brackets within about 15 minutes of your match. This was awesome. It is all about the individual tourney! As for posting entries maybe the phone calls the day ahead would have been because there were mistakes that could have been taken care of ahead of time(like the wrong age group)! As for weight changes, just look at the big venue tourneys or Districts, they in no way allow weight changes after entry! If your child can't make weight then a parent just looses the money and maybe mooves the kid up the next week!

I don't have a major problem with trackwrestling. just one concern which I'm sure will be taken care of before our Sub's. Under results of the Paola tournament. My son's brackets was not complete and then when I took a random check I found several were not finished. Also one of my boys was given 2nd place but track wrestling on line gave him 1st. Like I said these things can be taken care of before Subs.
Other than that track wrestling should be used and worked with. with everything we have to give it time for all of us to understand it and feel comfortable being around it.
I would encourge every one to try it if not this year but next. The more we used the less complaining we will do.
Everyone have a good season and be understanding.

My son has been at 3 tourney that have used Track wrestling - yes, there were some delays but because the tourneys were so well run the delays were quickly forgotten by those in our club and myself. Kudo's to Rossville and Manhattan - the tournaments were well run. You'll see my little Tornado back there again. We also went to Parkville,Mo and their's went well too. Posting brackets at the last minute is a pain but I don't really see any way around that!
Thanks for your hard work!