Did everyone else like this format as much as we did? We got there about 11 AM to weigh in and were home before 3 PM. He only had two matches (#14 & #29) but that is really not unusal for his age and weight group this time of year.

I have been a strong advocate of these split tournaments for several years. I was happy to see a Kansas side KC metro tournament give it a try in the regular season. Thanks Mill Valley and I hope it proved to be successful for you and the rest of the participants.

Yes, I liked it too, so did my son. The matches come quick enough yet not too quick...no loooonnnngggg delays between bouts...better for the wrestlers.

I will again agree with Vince. Split format is a great way to go. Started at 12:30 finished at 2:50 and wrestled 3 matches. I honestly don't know why more tournaments do not do this.
Great job Mill Valley!!

The short answer to your qestion wrestlingparents is that the people who run the tournament are typically there all day anyway so changing the format of the tournament really has little benefit to them, plus you make more in concession sales and raffles and things of that nature by having everyone there all day.

I can always count on Vince every year to try and get people to switch to split format.

Nigel-again I disagree. More people don't do this because 1. they don't know how to do it since they have never seen it done before 2. they don't want to change things because "that is the way we have always done it." Change can be good. You make just as much money on concessions and raffles. Coaches and people working the tournaments will be there no matter if it is a split tournament or a "regular" tournament. However, the coaches, parents, and kids are happier. And you don't have to hear about parents not doing kids wrestling because they don't want to spend every Saturday stuck in a gym. Give it a shot and see.

Ditto what Lemon said!

Bad point Mr. Lemon, most tournaments I go to have a hospitality room for coaches and officials and thus tournys make very little money off of them. Its the parents and spectators that make the difference. Keep them there all day and your likely to get two sales from them as opposed to the 1 that maybe you'll get if they are there for 3 hours. However I do agree with you on point 2 about doing things that way they have always been done, and honestly I don't have a problem with that, in fact I much prefer it. But then again I did grow up in a wrestling world were people were less concerned about going home and sitting on their butts watching tv and didn't mind being at a tournament for 5 or 6 hours. Thats just the way our community has gone, but just like any other legacy issue there will always be a strong contengency to keep the current system. I ask you this where does it stop? Perhaps you like to start making High school tournaments split style? Have 103-145 go in the morning then have 152-275 go later that afternoon? You would hate to miss the college football game that night for sure. Honestly the only people I really ever hear whine about this issue are those that really aren't dedicated to the sport all that much. I mean come on is 6 or 7 hours out of 1 day really all that much to ask?

I guess I should point out that I have been to several split tournaments in the past few years including the district tournament I officiated last year, and it was no different to me than a regular tournament except that the lack of people in the gym made the day seem somewhat "routine" and boring.

Just to answer a question.

Mill Valley did not make as much on concessions. That is okay though. We did try this format to relieve some of the congestion we have at our school when we have a tournament of this size. We cant make the school bigger so we tried this approach.

We did have approximately 550 kids wrestling.

I believe we started the 6 & 8 year olds right around 9:00am and all of the matches were done around 11:45am. Many of the competitors were done well before this time.

The 10 , 12, & 14 year olds started between 12:30pm and 12:45pm and the last match was completed by about 5:30pm.

Overall, I believe the tournament was a success as we accomplished what we set out to do. We achieved less congestion and we got the families home that did not have to be there all day as soon as we could.

A bit of advice for other tournament directors:

This format is good to use if you are looking to make your athletes and spectators happy! If you are looking to make a little bit more money for your club you should probably stick with the typical format.

We will choose to run split format again next year because it is worth it not to have the grumpy people complaining about the amount of time they spend at the tournament.


Thanks to all of those who helped make this tournament a great success!

See ya again next year - Split Format Style!


Jeff Broadbent - Director
Mill Valley Wrestling Club

Nigel, I know you are young and have not been a parent yet from previous posts. Do you own a house? People concerned about going home so they can sit on their butts to watch TV?????!!!!! You got to be kidding. When you have children (especially more than one that might be involved in other activities besides wrestling) and a house, you will realize that most people are not wanting to cut short a typical 8 to 12 hours wrestling tournament day just so they can go home to watch TV. There are other things going on in life you know. "5 or 6 hours" where are you coming up with that? Most of us would love it if a typical tournament day only took 5 to 6 hours. The only people who whine about it are people not dedicated to the sport?? Is Mike Juby not dedicated to the sport? There are plenty of others who are very dedicated to the sport who have come out for strongly for split tournaments. "I mean come on is 6 or 7 hours out of 1 day really all that much to ask?" It is not just one day and it is a weekend day. Most people with families, homes and busy schedules realize the importance of a giving up a weekend day. Many of us are giving up this weekend day for at least 12 weeks in a row and that does not include all the other time during the week going to practices. It is not just one day. I know how much time a parent puts in for their wrestlers. I am in my 8th year of doing it now. You should be grateful to parents instead of putting them down so much. You would not have this youth wrestling without parental involvement and support.

Nigel, I know you think all of us parents should just grin and bear. People are not going to do that. What they will do is just not participate, and you will never see wrestling grow like it should if you don't start trying to be more user friendly to these people who you say are not dedicated to the sport. Wrestling needs to attract these people. Wrestling would be wise to think of more ways to do it like these split tournaments. Otherwise wrestling will continue to be a secondary sport with limited media exposure and we will see even more college programs falter. I hope someday you realize it because I know you are very young and dedicated to this sport. I would like to actually see you become a leader in positive change to make wrestling more popular instead of always trying to just slam down people's ideas who are honestly trying to give some input to improve it.

Again....I agree with Vince (this is beginning to be a habit). We do not all go home and sit on our butts and watch tv. When the day is cut short it is a blessing, we can actually do some thing as a family. We usually are too tired after sitting 10 hours in a gym. For example, my daughter was able to go on her first rabbit hunt with her daddy that morning and they still made all the matches in the afternoon. I don't know about everyone else, but I spent just a much on concessions as I normally do.

Please.....more tournaments try the split format, you will find more families happier than the traditional format.

Yes Nigel they are making some good points. You do seem to be a great advocate and probably would like to draw more people to the sport.

Those whiners will always come and go. But the more people you can attract to the sport, the bigger it lives - longer AND better. There are a lot of kids who need the opportunity to try out wrestling. Some will be stars, others will have great memories. Make it as easy as possible for all of their guardians (parents/grandmas/etc).

Those guardians are consumers, and happy consumers spread the word and testify. Thus you get free marketing to the unknowing, who also begin to consume.

Grow your market through more consumers, not bleeding the same consumers dry of their money, NOR their patience.

By the way, I also saw less chaos for the organizers, they seemed happier too. And I also saw fewer kids (non-wrestlers) running around. Maybe cause they could find a pseudo-parent to kid-sit for 1/2 day. True for some I know.

PS: Thanks for the great advice you (and Richard too) gave me. I'm new to the board and appreciated they quick and reliable assistance.

Yes six hours Vince, you start at 9:00 am and you are done by 3 or 4 pm it happens at the well run tournaments, we were done at Marysville this weekend at 3:45 and every mat except 1 had over 100 matches, it can be done, its simply a matter of limiting your entries to a reasonable amount, have enough mat space, and not spend all day calling for scratches.

I tend to have a different thought process when it comes to this sport than others who are just around as a hobby. I see wrestling as an exclusive sport where only the most dedicated people become successful, there are very few wrestlers who can half heartedly wrestle themselves into a state championship, it takes thousands of hours of practice, hundreds of matches, and several other factors. To me it doesn't bother me that we as a sport remain behind some other sports a lot of this has to do with the fact that our sport is not exciting to people who don't understand the level of dedication it takes. To me if a parent isn't willing to spend a whole day with their kids, then maybe they should look into another sport.

I have put into this sport already more than 90% of the people my age and indeed many who are many times older than me have. I've been at almost every aspect that our sport has to offer, from competitor, to coach, to official, and many things in between. As not once have I ever made getting home as early as possible a priority. Believe me as an official when you work your 80th match of the day chasing around the young ones on mat 1, I think you have a far better appreciation for what a long day is then simply being in the stands. And you might say "Well at least you are getting paid for it" Yeah that is true but the money doesn't make the exhaustion go away, it certainly doesn't soothe the legs cramps. By 6:00 in the evening you can bet your inheritance that I am ready to go home already, but I love the sport and I love officiating so much that im staying until the last match is over.

I guess I just don't have the patience to placte parents and people involved in the sport who on a saturday are only willing to give 4 hours out of their life. This issue eats at me just as badly as coaches/dads who week after week are uninformed as to what exactly the rules are. I had a coach this weekend who pulled his kid out of a tournament because he thought his kid had pinned the other kid and the ref on the mat who I have worked with several times and I wrestled with for some 7 years said he wasn't. When does all the bickering stop? It doesn't because no one will ever be truly happy with everything. But its how we deal with what life throws us that makes us who we are.

The moral of my extremly long post is this. If you aren't willing to spend a saturday with your kid(s) then you need to find a sport that doesn't require what this one does. More than that perhaps you should expand your mind and start watching all kids wrestle instead of just yours. One last thing here, my mother and father were exactly the way that some many people who post in this forum are. They hated having to spend a whole saturday at a tournament just to see me wrestle 3 times, and because of that I often had to travel with my coach Coach Robinson and then Coach Gable to the tournaments (by the way I am eternally grateful to both of my coaches for this). But honestly Mr Nowak or anyone else who fits the above description, why don't you tell me exactly what it is that is more important for you to be doing on a Saturday afternoon at home that you couldn't do any other day of the week especially Sunday?

The split tournament is the only way to go for everyone. Including wrestlers, coaches, fans, refs, and workers. Maize runs a 1000+ kids gym tournament and has used the split format for 9 years. This eliminates having to impose a limit as Nigel stated which severely limits your fund raising capability not to mention turning kids away. Also trading concession funds for wrestler entry fees is a poor proposition.
Other positive factors include:
->Table workers & refs get a break between sessions.
->Tournament volunteers love it.
->Wrestlers can stay focused and perform better.
->Getting started on time is more likely since there are half the divisions to run scratches and re-balance brackets against per session.
->Awards and poster brackets are distributed in 2 intervals instead of all at the end allowing a shorter wait.
->Less people in the facility allowing the fans to actually see matches. Bracket runners to get to the wall brackets. Coaches to locate kids. Bathrooms availability, parking, talking and enjoying the time with your children, family, and wrestling friends.
->Shorter lines for concessions.
->Split tournaments allow double bracketing. You can wrestle your age plus the next age up if they fall on opposite sessions.
->When folks do have other weekend schedule conflicts that they do, a split tournament may allow you to do both activities.
->Ref's get paid the same.

Bottom line if you want to spent the day with your child the split tournament allows you to wrestle and leave some of the day to do other activities. But everyone still has the choice to watch both sessions and make a day out of it if they have nothing better to do. The statement that "State Champions are made from thousands of hours of practice" is true, so maximizing that time is key and not the time sitting in gyms. The long tournament days are the single biggest reason I see parents leave the kids wrestling programs. Our sport has got to respect the parents interest since the parents are ultimately making the decisions and not the kids.

Nigel, when I introduced this topic I did not think it was possible that it would become one for that much controversy. I really wanted it to be a thank you type topic for Mill Valley. I guess when you introduce a topic you never know what you can get. I guess this is as good as place as any to have what seems to be our 2 to 3 times a year disagreement about the merits of the split tournament format. I am not giving up on convincing you because I really do mean that statement that I would like to see you actually become a strong advocate in future efforts to open wrestling up to more participants and the general sport public. I believe your statement that you have put more into the sport than 90% of the people your age and you are vocal on the forum, so I might be crazy but I hope you can be converted someday.

Nigel, I believe you said that you are about 23 recently. I am 54. I think most people who have read our respective views on these issues over the last several years might have guessed the other way around based solely on our views. I know I thought you were older than me when I first started reading your posts. I heard from another person who would not believe me that you were in your early twenties. I always thought younger people were suppose to be about change and older people had the reputation of wanting to keep the things the same. Anyway, I want to address specifically some of the points you made in your last post.

Your point about a tournament being able to be done in six hours if run properly. Sure that is very possible. I have seen it happen often. That still can translate to 10 hours or more for many of us. We get there by say 7 to weigh in, add 2 more hours. If you have a conservative drive of 1 hour (many times it is a lot longer), you can add another 2 hours. So on what you have defined as a well run tournament, you are talking about at the minimum of 10 hours for most of us. And your statement of us having a better appreciation of what long day is then simply being in the stands is probably laughable to most parents especially those in charge of younger siblings. It reminds me of a parent who works coming home and complaining to the parent who stayed home and slaved all day with housework and the screaming children. I bet there are a lot of parents would love to have you try to sit all day in those stands and handle those screaming kids in a packed gym. I am sure your ref job is hard and exhausting but try doing the parent in the stands thing for about 10 weeks in a row including the drive to and from the meet with tired and cranky kids. The six hours that you talked about is actually the total time including driving that most of us are hoping for from a split format tournament.

Probably what concerns me the most about your attitude on this issue are your statements that you are not bothered that we as a sport remain behind some other sports, that this sport should basically be only those Spartan few who are willing to totally dedicate every ounce of their strength and time to becoming a State Champion. If Mr. Nowak you and other whining parents do not want to make this type of committment than find another sport for your kid. You know you told me that about four years ago on another topic. My son is an 8th grader and has been wrestling for eight years. I am pretty sure he is going to be wrestling thru high school. Believe me that he and even I as a parent have made a lot more than the average time committment to wrestling and that has been a year long effort. He loves the sport and excels at it. He also absolutely loves the split tournament format. It just amazes me that you are okay with wrestling being a secondary sport to the public. I really don't deep down think you believe that. It is just you want everyone to come over to your Spartan committment to it. We need as I believe Scott pointed out above people with all different levels of committment to it to succeed. I believe at least 95% of the people involved with wrestling do not want it to be a secondary sport and would love to see it grow in popularity with the general sports public.

Nigel, Parents are not the enemy. If wrestling makes some changes to please parents, wrestling is not going to die in fact it may thrive because of it. My final piece of advice as one old man to one young man is: "Get with it young man for the times they should be a changing!!!".

Im not always against change, what I am about is the old addage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" In my mind I see nothing wrong with traditional tournaments on the flip side of that I appreciate the split style for all the values it brings. I guess what im trying to say is I personally don't see a problem with the way things are, the people I grew up around and the kids that I wrestled with loved the sport just the way it was the same way I do. I guess what it really comes down to in the end is. Are we going to become a hobby rather than a sport? A system that people are only willing to give 3 hours to on any given day?

Surly Mr. Nowak you can appreciate my reluctance to switch our sport to something that people only want to do in their spare time. I have heard comments over the past few years from coaches, parents, and the like of things like "lets hurry up and get out of here so we can go have a beer." I heard one official mention that they wanted to get out of a tourny early so they could go watch the KSU women play a basketball game!! This alone is enough to make me wonder. Im not saying the goal of a tourny should be to keep everyone around all day, in fact you should try to get done as early as possible, but when you start making changes to the way a tournament is run to accomodate parents thats where I turn a def ear. The kids will be just fine, unlike some adults they can entertain themselfs for hours on end with gameboys, cd players, etc. etc.

As far as participation in our sport goes I tried to make it fairly obvious that I would much prefer to have a smaller number of people who can stay totally into the sport through the good parts and the bad, than have a large number of people who treat the sport like a chore.

I know how to roll with the punches, that doesn't mean I have to like them.

Less congestion in the gym was great! In past years, we have always enjoyed the competition at Mill Valley, but hated the overcrowded gym - it was one of the worst to try to find a spot in the bleachers. The split format really helped to allow there to be plenty of sitting.

My only compliant - raise the blue divider between the mats! With the divider down, it made it impossible to watch other wrestlers who were on mats 4+. Also, since we only had one coach at the meet - it made it more difficult for him to keep track of mat numbers and when wrestlers were coming up.

Okay. We all know that Nigel wants to keep things the way they are. However, from reading this post and the others similiar to this, it seems that he is by far outnumbered.

Nigel is usually outnumbered in his opinions.

We have been involved with wrestling for 4 years now. Not as long as most on here, but long enough that we have been involved in both split format and "regular" format tournaments. It just blows my mind that anyone would not be in favor of this. It has nothing to do with "lets hurry up and get out of here so we can go have a beer," as Nigel stated he has heard. It has to do with from our point of view, we have another child that gets put on the back burner during wrestling season. She even had to have her birthday party at the Chanute tournament earlier this year. Saturday was great, she didn't have to be woke up at 6:00 and didn't have to sit for 6+ hours in a gym with her little bag of toys. As much as I love wrestling (you can ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you I can't wait for Saturday's tournaments) getting to spend time as a family is important.

I know you say we should be willing to give up 1 day a week for the sport. It would be fine if it was only one day a week. What about the 2-3 days during the week when I leave my house at 6:45 a.m. for work and after work I meet my son at his practice and we don't get home until 9:00? Many parents give up hours during the week along with their Saturday for both the wrestler and their love of the sport. If that is not supporting your child and the sport I do not know what is.

Even if you don't believe it Nigel, the kids get tired of sitting around all day too. My son is lucky enough to normally be in the championship match at the end of the day, and his bracket is one of the last one completed. Believe me, he was very happy to be out of there in only 3 hours on Saturday.

I believe you can have a passion for the sport and support your child in it with out having to spend 6+ hours every Saturday for 12 weeks in the gym. Nigel said "if it is not broke, don't fix it." Well many of us think maybe it is not broken, but very bent. If we can bend it back before it breaks, why not?