And, can and how much does the rule get enforced? You can have all the rules in the world, but if you have few to enforce them, they are not worth much . . .

As a practical matter, the rule is probably unenforceable as technology has developed, especially in the past two to three years.

When this rule was instituted the cameras and recording devices were HUGE & EXPENSIVE--it was no secret who was recording or in what direction the camera was pointed and not every parent/grandparent/girlfriend, etc. in the gym had one. I remember having to lug a recorder around that was so heavy we had to load it on a two wheel dolly (late 1970's) and we thought we were "up town" to have such a device! Now a VERY SMALL digital pocket camera with a 1GB memory card can "video" a full day's wrestling -- as can most cell phones.

Whether or not the rule is necessary is a whole other debate. As pointed out not only do schools "film" their opponents in other sports but exchange "film" with each other. Can watching "film" give one competitor an edge over another? Heck yes--especially if the opponent does not have the advantage of his own "film!"

what do we call "film" now; digitized imaging?

Greg Mann
Norton

And probably one of the major reasons for the rule was that not all could afford those early monster video-tape machines. In that sense it was a competitive disadvantage for those who could not afford them. As pointed out above, that is certainly not the case any longer.

Greg Mann
Norton

One last response and I am out...

I disagree...the rule is enforceable.

I disagree...the rule states "any taping" not involving your wrestler is not allowed. On more than one occasion I have seen cameras/tapes confiscated from a parent taping an upcoming opponent and thoughout my career this has been the norm.

Will,

Football and basketball teams trade tape. It is illegal for a team to send someone to a game and film it for the purpose of scouting. Studying film of your opponent to find tendencies, weaknesses, etc. is something that should be done provided it is film obtained during a match with your wrestler. Broadcasting the tournament on closed circuit TV to the hospitality room is not video taping. You could just as easily sit mat-side and watch.

Finally, please congratulate Ryne on a huge victory and his tournament title. You should be very proud of him and best of luck during the remaining season.

I lied..now I'm done.

Egg, I like your use of "film". It's not really film any more but I don't really know what to else call it. I guess I'm like a broken record.

I haven't heard back from the KSHSAA Godfather yet and I am headed to the airport. One last question for everyone... Do we want a rule that doesn't permit us to film/video/digatize? I don't! I think it is part of every sport and it helps everyone get better. As Egg pointed out, EVERYONE can afford to have a device now so there isn't really an economic issue so lets open this up! Heck, anyone wants any of Ryne's matches I will send all of them over if they want to pay the shipping

I think there was a Bill Belichick sighting at the tournament

i am not sure if this has been answered yet, but from my experience at track meets, video or stills may only be viewed by the athletes after competition is finished. So that means on the way home you could watch the same match 4 million times if you wanted to.

I would like to speak from experience on this. Last year it was brought to my attention that my son was being filmed at several tourney's that we attended by the father of a future oppenent who's team was not at these tourney's. They never met until the state final's. Both at the time were undefeated. I spoke with our local AD and he said this was against the rules, so I contacted the KSHSAA, but did not get a response from them til state was over and I had sent another not so nice e-mail. My son still won, so the filming and money spent on gas to chase us around didn't help. If anything my son used it as motivation. But what if my son would of lost due to the filming. We were following the rules. I repeat we were following the rules. We weren't running all over the state to record his oppenents to try and get an edge. His oppenent didn't follow the rules as the rule is written today. If we don't like the rules then change them. Don't cheat and say you are doing it because the rule is stupid.

The video tapeing maybe against the rules,but if a wrestler is willing to take the time to study it and use it to be the best he can be,then we should promote it. We as parents push our kids to do the very best they can. Practice more than your oppenant,work harder,etc.Watching video of another wrestler is no different.Most wrestlers will not take time to watch other oppenants to see how to beat them.

An excellent wrestler (Mr. Stud) can do a hundred million different things well. Watching said wrestler on a video tape a million times will not make the other wrestler (Mr. Average) able to beat the stud.

dwelsh
"And, can and how much does the rule get enforced? You can have all the rules in the world, but if you have few to enforce them, they are not worth much . . . "

I agree, if the rule can't be enforced then let's get it changed. But in the meantime it is cheating.

Corngrower
"The video tapeing maybe against the rules,but if a wrestler is willing to take the time to study it and use it to be the best he can be,then we should promote it."

I am sure you mean change the rule first and then promote it.
I don't always agree with every traffic law. (Seatbelt law for example)But I try to obey it, because I know if I don't obey it, I will get fined. I am not trying to change the seatbelt law, so if I don't follow it and get caught I will have to pay the fine.
So in this instance the rule should be changed or enforced, which enforcing the rule,in this day and age would be impossible.

Mr. Broeckelman - When the KSHSAA got back with you did they give you any information that was useful? I think one of the topics on this post was if video taping is ever legal. Perhpas KSHSAA gave some insight. I agree 100% with you. If it is illegal it shouldn't be done period.

Disney
When I was contacted, I was told that it would be checked out, but this was after the state finals had already happened.
Only thru the old wrestling grapevine did I find out that it was checked out. I don't think anything was done. One thing that concerned me about this is my son still won. But what about the guy in the qrtr final's or semi-finals. Were they recorded as well?
I'll probably never know and it doesn't really matter now. But as the saying goes, it is water under the bridge.

The ruling has been documented!! Coach Seibel was correct. As stated earlier, a prominent official, an AD, and several coaches did not interpret the rule properly. I still don't feel that the KSHSAA has a right to tell parents what they can and can't film or take pictures of in a public forum. I agree with Jim, if it is rule then it shouldn't be broken but if it isn't going to be enforced then lets do away with it. Honestly there is no way short of banning cameras to enforce it. It should be allowed and it can become a part of the learning and preparation process. Those who want to get better by studying will and if those who don't want to put in the extra time it is their choice.

You will have to start at the bottom of the string and work your way up.

This is, as I noted, a policy that applies in all KSHSAA sports. I agree that the policy enforcement has challenges but I know it has been enforced by the schools! Not unlike traffic laws, not everyone who speeds gets caught but when they are, they are penalized. Policy such as this are determined by the KSHSAA Executive Board. Any KSHSAA member school (administrator, Board of Education) may propose changes to any KSHSAA policy. Or any member of the KSHSAA Board of Directors or Executive Board may propose changes. The KSHSAA Executive Board would have to adopt any changes to this policy.



Rick Bowden




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WCokeley
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:24 PM
To: rbowden@kshsaa.org
Subject: Re: Video Taping Clarification



This rule must be changed as it is absolutely unenforcable and will create a ridiculous amount of chaos and accusation. It is stupid! I will put this on my llist to the KWCA. What is the penalty? I know of at least 100 violators right now. This is so Orwellian.

I don't see how the KSHSAA can make a policy that applys when there is no basis for realistic enforcement. Absurd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Bowden <rbowden@kshsaa.org>
To: William Cokeley
Sent: Mon Jan 28 13:54:13 2008
Subject: RE: Video Taping Clarification

I never claimed to be an expert on federal law – all I was implying/saying is that there are federal laws that are on an on-going basis being decided daily in the courts relevant to how those laws apply to minors. What might be permitted (legal) today may not be tomorrow.



Bottom line – the statement in the KSHSAA wrestling manual can not be any clearer – no where does it state that it applies only to coaches, schools, etc. It states “Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is competition between your wrestler and an opponent.” I believe I did state in my previous response – the rule does not apply only to KSHSAA member schools or coaches.



Parents taping their own children’s matches – that’s not a problem. It’s someone (not a parent, grandparent, school coach, school manager) taping a match of a student from another school to review later. That’s the KSHSAA policy for all activities.



Rick Bowden



________________________________

From: WCokeley
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:15 PM
To: rbowden@kshsaa.org
Subject: Re: Video Taping Clarification



Rick,
Come on. You are not the authority on the privacy act only KSHSAA policies.

Does KSHSAA prohibit the video taping of other's matches or not? I will worry about the FBI and CIA later. The AD's, officials, and coaches are divided. The rule says "for the purpose of review during competition.". This would mean that you could video but not for that purpose. How would you ever enforce it when nearly every cell phone can record a period of wrestling now. It is unbelievable that my tax dollars go towards paying a group that can't deliver a straight answer. Are you going to expect schools to run around and check every electronic device and id to make sure it is ok to video? That is crazy and it would be equally crazy to ban cameras. This is still America no matter how much freedom your group tries to tear away from us.

Will

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Bowden <rbowden@kshsaa.org>
To: William Cokeley
Sent: Mon Jan 28 12:45:22 2008
Subject: RE: Video Taping Clarification

The rule does not apply only to KSHSAA member schools or member school coaches. We have had situations in the past in which schools have had to secure video’s of students taken by persons other than parents – there’s issues other than KSHSAA rules that apply in these situations – federal law re; privacy and minors. Johnny’s dad taking video’s of Joe and Jimmy (using your example) may very well be in trouble with violations of federal law.



Rick Bowden



________________________________

From: WCokeleySent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:00 PM
To: rbowden@kshsaa.org
Subject: Video Taping Clarification



Rick,



Can parents video wrestling matches of kids other than their own for use of review after the event has been completed?



For example: Can Johnny’s dad video Joe vs Jimmy on Saturday and then review the tape with Johnny the following Monday in preparation for the State tournament?



I read the rule in the 2007-08 Manual on page 13 but I interpret that rule as applying only to coaches, wrestlers, and school employees. Correct?



Will Cokeley

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Bowden <rbowden@kshsaa.org>
To: William Cokeley
Sent: Mon Jan 28 12:45:22 2008
Subject: RE: Video Taping Clarification

The rule does not apply only to KSHSAA member schools or member school coaches. We have had situations in the past in which schools have had to secure video’s of students taken by persons other than parents – there’s issues other than KSHSAA rules that apply in these situations – federal law re; privacy and minors. Johnny’s dad taking video’s of Joe and Jimmy (using your example) may very well be in trouble with violations of federal law.

Rick Bowden



Mr. Bowden has confirmed my statement and I must thank Will for once again providing me with a good laugh and further convincing the wrestling talk forum world of his propensity to look like the South end of a North bound mule.

Thank you William!

Lastly:



Darn the good luck!

Dick,

Did you per chance record video footage of your son's performance this past weekend? As Rick stated it is okay to record your own kid's matches and actions no matter what the results. You might be able to learn something from the video.

You may believe that I am the wrong end of a mule but at least I am true to my word, not a backstabbing, two-faced arrogant, overly opinionated, fecal matter stirrer.

Wow. Will and Richard: You guys need to sit down over a cold one some time...just let me know when and where. It could be fun to watch. Can't we all just get along?

Good Day! I have work to do.

At least we know now how KSHSAA is interpeting the rule. Thanks to all involved.

Gary,

I invited Richard/Dick to sit down and have a cold one. He said he couldn't do that because of an inability to stop at just one. Apparently the same problem he has with posting personal attacks. He just can't seem to stop himself. He is quick to point out flaws in others and ridicule them yet he easily disregards the fact that he too has issues that he should spend energy dealing with. This will be my final comment to or about him on this forum. He has joined SportZero in the not worth my time group.