 State seeding idea
#119567
02/17/08 10:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 393
Ryan Jilka
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Okay, this isn't a seeding idea, but a way to make it where the top two wrestlers (with a few exeptions) end up on the opposite sides of the state brackets.
First of all, I don't think the current system is terrible. It very well may be the best option out there. If you've ever been in a tough high school seeding meeting, it's not as easy as it sounds. The system only works well when you get your way (smell the sarcasm).
Here's the proposition that I've discussed with several 6A coaches:
* Only have two regional tournaments. Take the top eight from each tournament.
* The champions of each regional will automatically be on opposite sides of the state bracket (in 1 & 2 seed spots).
* The regional finalists will automatically be on opposite sides of who they wrestled in the regional finals (in 3 & 4th seed spots).
* The third and fourth place medalists will be placed on bracket in similar fashion that is done currently with all placers, but they will be in the 5-8th seed spots.
* Everyone else will be placed on the bracket just like it is today, with no consideration for their regional. Let's face it, you shouldn't seed everyone.
So what will this do?
*Barring upsets and screwed up regional seeding meetings (which is always a possibility) the best two guys should meet in the finals. If the two best guys are in the same regional, they should meet in the regional final and be placed on opposite sides at state. If the two best are at different regionals, they would also be on the opposite sides.
* Less guys with losing records would make it to state.
* Problems that I see with this:
** 5 match rule would make regionals be a two day event.
** Would really only work in 5A & 6A due to other classes having so many teams.
** Regional finals would have to start each finals weight at same time to avoid people from hearing of a finals "upset" and forfeiting to get on a favorable side. It makes me sick to think people would do this, but some would. Each tournament director could be in contact with the other director and do this. They are called directors, let them direct it.
I'm sure I'm overlooking some stuff. Feel free to tweak or bash this idea however you like. And when you do, please add your better idea.
Good luck to all at state!
Last edited by Ryan Jilka; 02/17/08 10:18 PM. Reason: editing
"The days I can keep my gratitude higher than my expectations...those are good days" ~ Judy Hubbard
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: Ryan Jilka]
#119573
02/17/08 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 897
chewie
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Posts: 897 |
This looks like quite an idea and the only drawback I see initially is travel for some of the smaller classes.
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: chewie]
#119582
02/18/08 12:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 121
rjohnson
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Would the regionals be based on who someone say's is the top 6 or 8 wrestlers making sure that they are split up somehow equal so that someone didn't complain that the top 6 was at the same regionals? And would this be done for each weight, so that the so called top two meet at State Finals in each weight? Also taking into consideration that not every school has the #1 or #2 top wranked wrestler at every weight on their roster.
Why not do a regional / than a sub-state / than state, than we could even maybe combine 6a and 5a to have the true big school state champion. Than the chances of someone getting to enjoy the atomsphere of a state tournement with a loosing record would be done from the stands.
Or maybe we could just do away with the State Meet all together and just award metals to the top 6 based on the rankings. Than what would we say to the kid who didn't get ranked but has never lost to anyone that wasn't ranked, who has beaten kids who are ranked, beat guys who did place high in state last year, and has even beat some who are in the overall rankings. And their only 3 losses in the last month has come at the hands of same wrestler who is ranked #1 overall and chances are this person is also one of the top 3 wrestlers in the state at any weight? Do we say sorry?
Not trying to start anything here it just every year its the same thing. Bad selection for state, bad seating, the #1 and #2 kid wrestled in the first round. With the number of wrestlers in every class it would be almost impossible to get everyone of them right.
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: rjohnson]
#119607
02/18/08 02:06 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 104
Coach Alley
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Ryan,
I agree that our sport could be improved with some seperation of the oustanding individuals in each weight class. Most of the time our formula from the KSHSAA works, but when it doesn't, it would be nice to have an alternative. I have posted this before and still would like to see something similar used. I know it needs tweeked in some ways but if we start with this and then gradually make necessary changes as needed. This plan works with all classifications.
Here it is again.
State Wrestling Championship Seeding
In order to make the State Wrestling Tournament more competitive for the athletes as well as more exciting for the fans, we need to seed the participants. Many times, the most evenly matched competitors are paired in the semifinals, which takes some of the excitement from the finals.
The KSHSAA could resolve this by seeding the regional finalists and still use the current formula for all remaining placers. I realize this has been discussed in the past, but with a few specific seeding criteria, this could be accomplished without delaying the pairings. The result will be a more evenly balanced semifinal round and the opportunity for returning state finalists to meet in the finals match.
Proposed Seeding Criteria
Unlike the criteria for an invitational tournament, these criteria are specific and listed in order of preference. Only the regional champions will be seeded and all other placers from their regional will follow the formula according to their champion’s placement.
Seeding Criteria
1. Returning state champion at same weight
2. Returning state champion
3. Previous state placer
4. Regional championship over a state placer
5. Outstanding record
These criteria suggestions could easily separate opponents and help showcase our state finals. There will be individuals who meet these criteria, but may not be the regional champion. They are not seeded. They lost their seeding criteria by not placing first in their regional.
Seeding Procedure
All regional tournaments will report results to the KSHSAA and have them placed into the formula as in the past. Once pairings are made, they will be reviewed by a panel of three former coaches for each classification. This would require 12 individuals to be assigned by the KSHSAA. These 12 would meet for approximately two hours, review the pairings and make necessary adjustments to the A, B, C & D assignments in order to separate the seeds.
In some weight classes, the computer program will take care of things automatically. In most cases, it would be a simple matter of switching two regional placements into the formula.
The brackets would still show no preference to a specific location of the first through fourth seed. The goal is to separate the top competitors by use of the criteria.
The seeding criteria are only suggestions and with review, might need to be revised. We should limit the number of criteria to no more than five.
Terry Alley
Andover Central High School
316-218-4700
You've been Coaching how long?
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: rjohnson]
#119634
02/18/08 05:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 393
Ryan Jilka
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Posts: 393 |
Would the regionals be based on who someone say's is the top 6 or 8 wrestlers making sure that they are split up somehow equal so that someone didn't complain that the top 6 was at the same regionals? And would this be done for each weight, so that the so called top two meet at State Finals in each weight? Also taking into consideration that not every school has the #1 or #2 top wranked wrestler at every weight on their roster.
**This has nothing to do with rankings. KSHSAA would still determine the regional teams. All this is trying to accomplish is getting the two kids that finish in the top two at their regionals on opposite sides of the bracket and the two regional champions on opposite sides. That's it. It's not perfect.
Why not do a regional / than a sub-state / than state, than we could even maybe combine 6a and 5a to have the true big school state champion. Than the chances of someone getting to enjoy the atomsphere of a state tournement with a loosing record would be done from the stands.
[b]**Are you trying to stay on subject? If you want to combine 5 & 6A, I respect that. I've even proposed a way of combining classes to more evenly distribute the number of teams in each class. This is not a big class/small class debate, however. That's been exhausted! Every class has this issue. I just don't have a good solution for the classes with 64+ teams. I think Coach Alley's idea may be best suited for this.b]
Or maybe we could just do away with the State Meet all together and just award metals to the top 6 based on the rankings. Than what would we say to the kid who didn't get ranked but has never lost to anyone that wasn't ranked, who has beaten kids who are ranked, beat guys who did place high in state last year, and has even beat some who are in the overall rankings. And their only 3 losses in the last month has come at the hands of same wrestler who is ranked #1 overall and chances are this person is also one of the top 3 wrestlers in the state at any weight? Do we say sorry?[/b][/b][/b]
***Sounds like you have some other issues that go beyond splitting up the top two wrestlers. Rankings mean nothing in this idea. Nothing.
Not trying to start anything here it just every year its the same thing. Bad selection for state, bad seating, the #1 and #2 kid wrestled in the first round. With the number of wrestlers in every class it would be almost impossible to get everyone of them right.
[b]***You're right, it will be impossible to get everything right. A great kid can get "caught" or be injured or sick or whatever and show the imperfection of this idea. However, we could try to end the random chance that the two best kids (again, based on regional placing) being put on the same side of the state bracket. Every year, in every class, people would like to see the best two wrestlers (based on regional performances, still not perfect) to end up having a chance to meet in the finals. They just want a chance, not a guarantee. As a coach, I didn't put much thought into this. There was a time or two that I thought we might get a guy in the finals if things were different, but my job was to make sure they did their best no matter what side of the bracket they were on. As a fan, it's not good to see a finals match, knowing that the best pairing for that bracket happened in the semis.
With no solution of your own, I assume that you're happy with the current system. I respect, but disagree, with your take on it.
Last edited by Ryan Jilka; 02/18/08 06:00 AM.
"The days I can keep my gratitude higher than my expectations...those are good days" ~ Judy Hubbard
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: Coach Alley]
#119635
02/18/08 06:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 393
Ryan Jilka
OP
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 393 |
Ryan,
I agree that our sport could be improved with some seperation of the oustanding individuals in each weight class. Most of the time our formula from the KSHSAA works, but when it doesn't, it would be nice to have an alternative. I have posted this before and still would like to see something similar used. I know it needs tweeked in some ways but if we start with this and then gradually make necessary changes as needed. This plan works with all classifications.
Here it is again.
State Wrestling Championship Seeding
In order to make the State Wrestling Tournament more competitive for the athletes as well as more exciting for the fans, we need to seed the participants. Many times, the most evenly matched competitors are paired in the semifinals, which takes some of the excitement from the finals.
The KSHSAA could resolve this by seeding the regional finalists and still use the current formula for all remaining placers. I realize this has been discussed in the past, but with a few specific seeding criteria, this could be accomplished without delaying the pairings. The result will be a more evenly balanced semifinal round and the opportunity for returning state finalists to meet in the finals match.
Proposed Seeding Criteria
Unlike the criteria for an invitational tournament, these criteria are specific and listed in order of preference. Only the regional champions will be seeded and all other placers from their regional will follow the formula according to their champion’s placement.
Seeding Criteria
1. Returning state champion at same weight
2. Returning state champion
3. Previous state placer
4. Regional championship over a state placer
5. Outstanding record
These criteria suggestions could easily separate opponents and help showcase our state finals. There will be individuals who meet these criteria, but may not be the regional champion. They are not seeded. They lost their seeding criteria by not placing first in their regional.
Seeding Procedure
All regional tournaments will report results to the KSHSAA and have them placed into the formula as in the past. Once pairings are made, they will be reviewed by a panel of three former coaches for each classification. This would require 12 individuals to be assigned by the KSHSAA. These 12 would meet for approximately two hours, review the pairings and make necessary adjustments to the A, B, C & D assignments in order to separate the seeds.
In some weight classes, the computer program will take care of things automatically. In most cases, it would be a simple matter of switching two regional placements into the formula.
The brackets would still show no preference to a specific location of the first through fourth seed. The goal is to separate the top competitors by use of the criteria.
The seeding criteria are only suggestions and with review, might need to be revised. We should limit the number of criteria to no more than five.
Terry Alley
Andover Central High School
316-218-4700 I certainly think this has a lot of merit. I may be missing it, but I don't see where this accounts for the regionals that has the two best kids in it. I think that if you follow your criteria AND put the runner up on the opposite side of the guy that beat him in the regional finals you have a better solution. I'd like to see head to head as a possible criteria over record, as some schools schedule much tougher opponents than others. This may also help with the rarity that a kid moved up or down a classification, or one that is a freshman and has not had an opportunity to acheive the required criteria. I would be happy to work with a group to further this movement that may improve wrestling in Kansas. I know it is a tough mountain to conquer, but without the first step there's no chance to get to the top.
"The days I can keep my gratitude higher than my expectations...those are good days" ~ Judy Hubbard
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: Ryan Jilka]
#119668
02/18/08 04:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 104
Coach Alley
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 104 |
Ryan,
I believe this system will take care of the Champ and Runnerup situation. We would still use the same formula that the State has. We are only seeding the Champions from each regional and them placing their entire Regional into the formula by their respective A,B,C,D region. This way your champion and runnerup would be on the opposite of the bracket as they are now.
Again, in most cases, the States formula works very well. Occasionally, we have the two Champions or Outstanding wrestlers on the same side and that is when a simple realignment of an "A" Regional for a "C" Regional placement would take care of the seeding. The A and C were used as examples and could be any combination.
Remember the goal! Seperate the two best athletes and give them a chance to meet in the finals. It will build a little more excitement and help us showcase our best athletes.
I did this to last years 4A and I think it only involve changeing 2 or 3 brackets from the state formula. I agree, this is still not perfect but we need to start somewhere and keep improving on it and this is a pretty simple solution which is not going to cost the state extra $$$ and would only delay the brackets until maybe Sunday afternoon instead of midnight.
You've been Coaching how long?
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Re: State seeding idea
[Re: Coach Alley]
#119785
02/18/08 11:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 56
state placer
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i like this idea, it would really make it tough to win as a team as well
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