They were coaching HS wrestlers from their school. FACT

Stupid rule. There is nothing positive about such a restriction.

"Another comment from these (Iowa) coaches was that they wrestle nearly fifty matches a season . . . "
Kansas wrestlers can get nearly 40 matches per season if weather does not interfere. What is the magic number of matches that should be wrestled in a season; or is it that whatever number Kansas wrestles are too few?


". . .and might get 5 to 10 easy matches."
No doubt the Iowa coaches were totally unbiased in their opinion. (sarcasm)

It reads as though you hold the rule-breaking Iowa coaches in high regard. These are coaches who were blatantly breaking their state's coach-athlete rules. It does make one wonder what other rules they would be prone to not follow if it/they got in the way of what they wanted to do. Maybe Iowa is the wrestling nirvana for which you have been searching; sounds as though it may have a "don't need no stinkin' rules" mentality.

Actually, I know of the Iowa Activities Association administrator for wrestling, having been in some meetings with him. He is a good and decent man who would be distressed, to find out that Iowa high school coaches were violating their Association rules.

The "it was a stupid rule anyway" defense has not won many, if any, legal disputes.

Greg Mann
Norton

No law here Greg, no one is going to jail or getting fined, they are just going to be better wrestling coaches, it is just a STUPID RULE. It is time to pony up some cash, get some legal help and dismiss the dinosaurs such as yourself. You all have forgotten to pay attention to the hands that feed you. You do realize you get paid by tax dollars?? It is time for wrestling and other sports to have their own tea party. The KSHSAA is unfair taxation without representation! How many athletes have parents on the board? How many business people are on this board? How do you get on the board?

If you think it is a good rule then get behind it with some fact based support for this restriction on freedom to improve. It isn't just about wrestling it most likely goes down to the root of the education system. In Kansas we have too many out in your part of the state who won't let go of the inefficient setup which places a strain on education funds. I am talking about much need consolidation as well as other changes that won't happen as long as we have closed minded people such as yourself governing potential improvements. The 321A schools should NOT have as much say in the rules and spending as the larger schools. In attempt to keep things even or level you are pulling down our whole state. Please just give me some reason why coaches shouldn't be allowed to coach athletes outside of the season? Just try! Give me something to argue...

Like it or not, Mr. Cokely is willing to speak his mind and undoubtedly is one of the most adament advocates for positive change to benefit KS Wrestling. I have to concur with him as far as what it will take to take Kansas to that most elite level we can aspire to.

No, it may not be for all, but I would compare it (KSHSAA Guidelines) to the No Child Left Behind. Why in the world should we be advocating more for our bottom feeders and keep wrestling down. It takes that extra work to attain the results of a champion and Mr Cokely I commend you for championing this cause and sticking your neck out.

Wrestling is a sport which pits man vs man and starts on a level playing field unlike size, socio-economic politics, popularity etc that can determine playing time etc in numerous other sports. But what is great is that by being willing to put in that extra work and having adults such as Will go to battle for you to get you some of those extra work such as helping to co-ordinate the Kansas Middle School Nationals and opening up his barn to elite level teaching instructors and voicing loudly what changes he feels will move us forward is of great benefit if folks will get on board as there is strength in numbers and a fight he should not have to endure alone.

Don't get me wrong as I realize that others feel likewise and serve on commitees, brainstorm etc for those changes but playing nice and political will only get you so far and sometimes a strong voice and leadership is necessary. I know the adage you can get more flies with honey but hey lets all be honest we have played "Mr. Nice" and sit idly by long enough and let others dictate/limit capabilities of KS Wrestling, who many of have no genuine connection or even background in this sport yet accept that they know what is best.

I feel that ALL participants regardless of individual success benefit from their individual association with this sport but it is necessary to be fair to those with desire to become ALL they can be to do right by them and this would include many of the proposals Mr. Cokely has voiced.

I will be honest in telling you that for instance it is very hard for someone such as my son whom is fair talent to keep up with those who go to National Tourneys such as Reno or Tulsa, attend Purler, Team Central or Akin Wrestling Academy, Go to Summer Camps such as Granby, Mizzou, Chertow, Oklahoma, Iowa or OSU and do wrestling year round in other styles such as Greco and Free-Style. It is then up to me to be resourceful whether buying cheap videos online, seek out less expensive camps, use the internet for resources etc, take advantage of the pre-National Hays Camp that USAW-KS has helped fund to offset cost, seek out fund-raising opportunities to aid him in at least keeping up with the learning curve if he so desires.

But Nevertheless I strongly feel if one has the ability to be a champion at the highest level possible we as a Kansas Wrestling Community owe it to those young men who put in the blood, sweat and tears, and time and money.

Can you give us some facts that support the idea that Kansas is either standing still or falling behind other states due to KSHSAA? To date, Mr. Cokely has either been either unwilling or unable to support his theories with ANY proof. Pehaps you can do so for him?

Colorado, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska, and Missouri, all close neighbors to Kansas host a single site state wrestling tournament making it possible for all of the members of their respective wrestling communities to gather in one place each year. This makes it easier for college coaches to attend to scout potential scholarship candidates. Oklahoma has a very strong jr. high program but permits its wrestlers to continue wrestling in independent, open events during the season. Kansans are equal to the Oklahomans in talent as youths but the Okies pass us by when they get to middle school and high school because their coaches work more with their kids, they are allowed to wrestle outside of school sanctioned events, and they pit the best against the best. Their association permits more matches as well.

I know of one wrester who had to skip the first week of Kansas practice so he could wrestle in the CK Kickoff, an event that ALL age elgible Kansans should attend. His HS coach was chastised by others for "allowing" such to happen instead of embracing the tactic so those kids would get some competition they would NEVER see in a Kansas hosted event, especially at the JV or Freshman level.

Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Missouri, Texas and many other state's governing bodies have rules that permit wrestlers to get 50 or more matches. The KSHSAA rules could permit that many if there were events to attend inside of the 500 mile travel restriction and your school wrestled no individual dual events but to date the most matches wrestled in a career by a Kansas wrestler has been less than 175. Angel Escebedo had nearly 250 in his HS career! Are you going to tell me that more mat time won't make our wrestler's better? Are you going to tell me that traveling to the Beast of the East or the Ironman won't make our wrestlers better?

I attend tournaments all over the country every weekend. I see what is on the mat and I KNOW that we are falling behind and I know that we COULD be better if allowed to do so. The ONLY significant change to HS wrestling by KSHSAA since I was in HS is to water down state at the 5A and 6A level and place six kids. You tell me how that makes us better? In the guide for the Metro Classic they list the all time win record for each school who has had wrestlers compete against those from Missouri. The Shawnee Mission schools have just two wins against 13 losses. Are you going to tell me they don't need to start doing something different to improve and catch up to Missouri?

The changes desired by the "too much is a good thing" group are coming, (though not fast enough for some).

Many of us "dinosaurs" will be exiting the scene in the next few years as we retire. No doubt this will usher in a new day in Kansas wrestling where the sun will shine brighter and the birds will sing more energetically; where every wrestling match in every scheduled competition will be of state championship caliber and every wrestler in Kansas will be guaranteed at least 50 matches per season with no travel restrictions whatsoever and coaches will be allowed, nay expected, to coach their athletes 24x7 year round. What about academics and the health of the athletes? These will become secondary concerns.

Beware of that for which you wish, as you may get it!

I realize that tax payers pay my salary--Mr. Cokeley misses no opportunity to remind any and all of this fact. As a wise man once told me, when you point your finger at someone, there are three pointing back--Mr. Cokeley no doubt is the beneficiary of some tax-payer supported benefits.

FYI, I am not on "the board" to which Mr. Cokeley refers. I DO serve on a special committee formed by the KSHSAA to address concerns regarding weight loss. The membership of this committee is composed of doctors, athletic trainers, coaches, AD's and school administrators (principals and supts). How did I get selected? Just lucky, I guess.

Finally, Those who may believe that disputes over local school and state athletic association rules do not lead to legal disputes (and proposals in the state legislature) do not pay attention to the news.

Greg,

You are correct, the changes are not coming along fast enough. The glaciers melt faster than any changes I have seen happen in the realm of the KSHSAA. What changes were approved during last Friday's meeting? I still believe the board is just a puppet operated by the great Maestro Musselman and his henchman Bowden. Even the insiders will tell you so.

What are the educational and health concerns you have when it comes to permiting coaches to teach athletes outside of the season? Are the boys from Kansas not tough enough and/or smart enough to wrestle as many matches as wrestlers from Texas? No one is demanding that coaches do so but if a coach would like to then they should be able to. Freedom to chose is all we are talking about here! KSHSAA is too controlling and the regulations are bordering on asinine. I know exactly what I am wishing for and I am willing to pay to get it. I want a level playing field with other states and I am not alone. I wish for freedom because that is what the country was founded for. I want representation for my tax dollars. I don't want guys like you making decisions on how my money is spent. I want wrestling advocates to make decisions for wrestling not basketball and football people.

I am aware of the finger pointing theory. I DO NOT receive my compensation directly from an entity which is totally tax supported like yours. EVERYONE receives some benefit or compensation from tax dollars if you want to dig deep enough. You have no fiscal accountability in other words your job only requires you to spend money you do not have to make any and you probably don't even care where it comes from as long as you get your share.

I am aware and hoping that this does lead to a legal dispute like the swimming issue did. It might be the only way to get something productive accomplished before my son kids get to high school.

If they are retiring, do any of them need help packing?
I have a truck that we could use.

Will:

I'm just asking; I know what Kansas's rules are and I know Iowa's, but could you provide us with a list of the states that allow what you would like to see done as well as a reference as to where we could see their rules so that maybe there'd be a more definitive reference point?

You've brought up other states, to the point of saying the Iowa and Missouri coaches obviously violate their own "stupid" rules, but I just wondered which states — by actual rule — do it your way. Maybe then we'd have an actual precedent to show people to support the changes you'd like to see. You've brought up an unified State tournament, travel restrictions and whatnot; I guess what I'm asking is about the coaching contact rules and in-season outside competition rules. Like I said, I know Kansas and Iowa rules, but I'm not familiar with other states. I thought perhaps you've researched this and could share that.

Just a suggestion...

I don't know much about all the high school national tournaments. Is there some reason why NHSCA Nationals is not representative of where Kansas is compared to other states? I see Kansas did much better as a team than Iowa. In fact, we tied MO and beat NE, IA, CO, TX, OK, WI and IN. Are some states not really attending this tournament? I think maybe I heard that Oklahoma didn't really participate fully.

With regard to the Shawnee Mission Schools not faring well in the Metro Classic program, most of the Shawnee Mission Schools are not exactly wrestling powerhouses. Bishop Carroll is subject to the same KSHSAA rules, and I believe would fare better than 2-13.

I would like to point out that the Shawnee Mission East wrestling team took 4th place at 6a state. They have been building their program over the past 3-4 years with excellent results.

Hence me saying "most of the Shawnee Mission Schools".

Still, they are not yet a powerhouse. No offense, they have made great strides.

6A is very, very tough at the top but the drop off is significant afterwards. 4th place in 6A might not break you into the top 10 in 4A but the point is that Kansas really isn't competitive with other states. The Shawnee schools are some of the largest in the state but they have trouble filling a solid varsity line up.

Bishop Carroll is definitely an exception to the norm. They are basically a magnet wrestling school right now. They wrestle the best schedule and they have awesome assistants. Being a private school has its advantages! God Bless them for making the most of them.

The NHSCA or any post HS season tournament is a difficult way to measure up to other states. I don't think Iowa was very well represented at that tournament and neither was Ohio. In the post season you are just measuring your elite and dedicated against the other state's elite and dedicated. A better measuring stick is the regular season. Look at the results from the tournaments hosted by Kansas schools where out of state schools were invited. You will see a solid trend where out-of-state schools win or place high in these tournaments. The middle of Kansas is far behind the middle of the surrounding states.

I talked to some Iowa coaches today. They form magnet wrestling rooms after the season where multiple schools practice. Their wrestlers are then coached by another school's coach, wink, wink. They also merge rooms under a scrimmage rule after regionals which lets them have higher quality practice rooms.

A-ha! Right answer Will! That's what I was hoping you were getting at.

Bizarre though it may be, in Iowa, during off-season inside-the-school-year wrestling, a coach can work with any high school wrestler except his own. I've had kids in rooms in that situation, in which we put together groups where we would have none of our own kids in our group. We were all teaching the same things, but staying within the rule. And, we did stay within the rules because there might be that one coach there that -- in a tight spot -- might screw the rest of us if the chance came.

The scrimmage rule you mentioned has been legal for as long as anyone can remember. Usually between Sectionals and Districts, four or five schools might get together and and their District qualifiers practice together a couple of nights -- assuming they aren't going to see each other at Districts. Because State starts on Wednesday, I don't know a lot of teams that practice together that week, but we always did between Sectionals and Districts. I was very surprised when I was in Kansas that we couldn't do that.

Most Iowa kids aren't that big on post-season tournaments. There's never been a lot of push for it. Most of them are getting ready for summer freestyle.

Has anyone seen Bob and Roy?

Gary Ulmer

I was told today that Rick Almighty stated that NO PROPOSAL for the 5A and 6A regionals reached his desk. There were no proposals for change to wrestling at the KSHSAA BOD meeting last Friday. You might find this hard to believe, well anyway I did, if the KWCA doesn't have near consensus (95% support) for a change it will NEVER be presented to the BOD. Last time I checked majority ruled! So, if 6% of our coaches don't want to change anything then nothing will change. My source also stated that only one or two changes can be handled by the KSHSAA as too much change, too fast is not possible. I call that progress retardation! All my boys will be fathers before any meaningful changes will be implemented unless we find a catalyst for change.

I know my dad is perfectly capable of defending himself, but it really bothers me to have anyone question his dedication to education or wrestling. You would be very hard pressed to find any superintendent in the state that is as supportive of wrestling as he is. He volunteers his time (meaning does not get any additional pay) for multiple wrestling related issues, the most recent being the weight loss plan, which thank god has avoided the cumbersome descent plan adopted by the National Federation. Not to mention he has been an administrator either as AD or Supt at Norton for close to 20 years. The support that program receives is second to none. In addition, he was a voice in the fight to get the coach contact rule liberalized in the late 90’s. When I 1st started high school, coaches were not allowed to have sport specific contact outside of the season- not even in the summer. Fortunately that rule has been changed, and we have dinosaurs like my dad to thank for that.



How exactly would you propose for anyone in the PUBLIC educational system to make money? Should we charge students to attend school, that would defeat the purpose of the very nature of Public education? Should we have our students produce something that has a value on the open market? His job does require him to spend money, all of it coming in some way from tax dollars- but where else should it come from. And to say there is no accountability is laughable. The amount of oversight and auditing is tremendous. Couple that with the fact that most years the budget must be created (by law) prior to the state deciding how much money to give the schools, that makes it very difficult. As an educator myself, I don't care where the money comes from, that is someone else's concern. All I am concerned about is having enough to provde adequate learning opportunities to my students and athletes. I know that too often I am digging into my pockets to buy supplies for class and I teach in Johnson County. I am sure it is worse other places.



Regarding your views above, it shocks me that you were once from Western Kansas. I agree that some consolidation does need to take place, but there is only a limited amount left to do. A few very small communities are holding on to their schools, but can you really blame them. Once the school goes, the town dies. The real problem is that many of the schools that should be consolidated are too far away from other schools. How long should a student need to ride a bus or drive to get to school. I know in some places students are on the bus approaching an hour each way. If these schools are consolidated any further, are we talking about setting up boarding schools in western Kansas? The real problem is the economics in that area of the state are not good. Farms are getting larger and more mechanized to maximize productivity, but that means a lower population. What is really needed is some initiative in Topeka to stimulate some growth in western Kansas (tax credits or something else to get businesses to set up shop out there), however the legislators in the two areas of the state that have enough votes to cancel anything like that (Kansas City area and the Wichita area) will not let it happen for fear that it will take their economic development away. The bottom line is the kids that live out west deserve a first rate education, just like those here in the east.

This is in no way an endorsement of current KSHSAA rules, rather it is a response to an unfounded personal attack on a fine educator, and in general an entire area that is very dear to me and which I feel some of the best people anywhere still call home. I am all for some changes, Will you and I have communicated about some of the hindrances that I have been fighting, but this thread deviated from that path.

PS: the reason my dad has not responded himself is that he is at a board meeting discussing how to replace many of the fine educators (aka dinosaurs) that are retiring. The problem is that not enough young people are getting into the profession. Any ideas why? Could it be the lack of pay, or the lack of respect? I will guarantee that respect is the bigger obstacle!

I only wish I could take my $80,000 in property tax money and give it to the school where my son attends, then, Kale, you would not be receiving ANY of MY money like you are now. Your dad took the first shot so he should have been prepared for the counter attack. While on the topic of funds, you darn right the public schools should be accountable! It is not in the best interest of improvement to have a monopoly like the current public school system. I pay for public school and I have to pay for private as well. I chose to place my kids in private school because it is BETTER. I have to pay for my choice as I get NO tax credit for additional expenditure. The problem is that the current system has no accountability. People cannot move out of a district simply because they have a crummy principal or school board so they have to wait for the change if they cannot economically afford a different option. You don't buy inferior goods when you have an option so why should I have to pay for an inferior edcuational and athlectic opportunity?

I am frustrated with the system your father supports. It was a totally founded attack at least as much founded as his on my post. Your father might be a great educator but he should not be such a control freak when it comes to athletics. If he believes that coaches should be allowed to coach then let them coach unrestricted. THERE IS NO HARM IN ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN! The rule is in place to protect the coaches who do not want to coach outside of the season. Back up the rules that I feel should be changed with some fact based support instead of just telling me to go away. The KSHSAA system is broken and is in need of change. I am going to do everything I can to make this happen. The real dinosaurs are Bowden and Musselman your dad just chose to jump on me so I just grouped him in there with them. Talk about a couple of guys with no accountability!

BTW it is most definitely a lack of pay more so than respect. Did your dad respect me? I don't really think so. Every time I post anti KSHSAA information he jumps on me. If Ryne wasn't asleep I would let him get on here and defend me too! He would really like to go to the Beast of East or Ironman. Give me one good reason why the travel restriction is in place?? Maybe you should read all of my posts before you jump on me. I just wonder, do you respect me?

Sorry to interrupt the personal attacks, but in the 14 matches that SME wrestled against 4a #1 Clay Center & # 2 Andale, we split 7-7. If I include the top 12 4a schools (only because we had matches against #1,2,6,10,11 & 12) the split goes to 31 to 16 in favor of SME.