First of all, I do not want to step on anyone's toes. This topic is very touchy to me as I'm a current coach in a state where there are really no rules governing what we can and can't do. I use to be a head coach in KS and I have been a head coach in other states in the midwest also. The rules are pretty much the same throughout as far as coaching. KS is a little stricter on some rules, but for the most part I think the rules are pretty good.

I have been out of KS for sometime now and I do not know any of you personally, so I do not want to get into arguments over anybody personal opinions. One thing that I do know is when you start calling coaches lazy, that is going to touch a nerve with many of us. When I was in KS, I did not agree with the rule that I could not coach out of season. I do agree that some coaches are lazy and they probably would not want to coach out of season, but as a high school coach, teacher, and family man it is hard to make a living coaching one sport. Many coaches have to coach 2 or 3 sports to be able to afford doing what we love. As far as opportunities for wrestlers to be coached. They will probably have to do a lot of it on there own. I know many successful wrestlers from the western side of the state that were able to accomplish things and they did not even have opportunities a lot of time to belong to a freestyle/greco club.

I know the frustration a lot of people have, but the restrictions that the KS coaches face are really no different than what the other states have. Besides the travel restrictions, KS is very easy on some of the other rules that some states face.

Last thing. I do believe KS could get a dual state tournament going, but it would need to be sponsored by the KWCA. Maybe this has been thought of, but we are able to do this by having our state coaches association sponser it. We have qualifying tournaments and then have a state tournament. It takes a little bit of the season away, but they are great tournaments and it is a good way to see competition.

I will comment more later after I hear some opinions. I try to stay out of this stuff, but it is fun to discuss wrestling sometimes with people. Good luck on your ventures. I know it is always hard to get change to occur.

Will:

In a way, Iowa really doesn't have a match limit either. We are allowed 18 "dates," which better translates into "events." In other words, a Saturday tournament, a single dual and a double dual each count as a "date." Most schools wrestle double duals during the week, and at least half or more of their Saturday tournaments are dual tournaments. So if you eight Saturdays — 3 traditional tournaments and five six-team duals — there's 37 matches right there, plus 10 more double duals, that makes 57 (if you scheduled that way). And that's before Sectionals, Districts and State.
Add those in and you're in the 65-70 match neighborhood. Now, that being said, most kids here have more like 45-50 (five-team dual tourneys and some single duals during the week, plus the inevitable snow-outs). In all, I had five kids I coached up here in two years that finished their careers (three this year) with over 100 wins. Two of them did it in just three years of varsity wrestling and one never went to State.
I wish Kansas would get rid of the points system. I never have figured out what the benefit is. I think a date limit would be fairer and let coaches decide how many matches they want their kids to wrestle.

Exactly Who is this sportsfan02 person ? He should proudly identify himself if he is so knowledgeable ! ....No ?

If a coach was to take full advantadge of the point system in Kansas, wrestlers could have a total of 72 matches per year!

Randy:

I'm really bad at math....can you break that down?

I'll do the research again tomorrow but if you compete in 2-day dual tournaments you can theoretically get 10-matches a weekend.

When you get to regional and state you can have, I believe, 6-matches maximum at both.

I did the research a couple of years ago and reported the findings then! I am going off my recollection which at times, is a bit suspect!!

Randy:

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad way to schedule....I've heard worse ideas anyway.

Randy,

Art. 6: No student representing a member high school shall
participate in more than 18 events and no more than
30 competitions points during a season, exclusive of the
state championship series.
Dual 1 point
Double Dual 2 points
Quad (Triple Dual) 3 points
One-day Tournament 3 points
Two-day Tournament 4 points
NOTE: All multiple dual events and one-day tournaments
shall be scheduled after 3:00 p.m. on Friday or any time on
Saturday. Double duals and triple duals scheduled Monday through Thursday shall be after 4:00 p.m. Two-day tournaments
shall be scheduled on Friday and Saturday.
NOTE: Tournaments are defined as competition involving
more than four teams.


The math...
You get 30 points. 4 for a two day tournament, 3 for a one day tournament, 2 for a multi dual event and 1 for a single dual. There are 10 weekends. If you got five matches a day in 7 two day events that would be 70. You would have two points for one double dual. That would be eight events. or two single duals which would be nine events, either way that is 72. Before regional and state which would give you 8 more. Oh boy, that would be 80!!! IMPOSSIBLE!!!

(How is that for some research Sports0loser?!)
That is a joke! You cannot get 5 matches each day of a two day tournament and five matches in a one day tournament. It is mathematically possible but YOU CANNOT schedule that way because the opportunities do not exist! If you have a one day tournament with 12 teams (which is the maximum you can have in a standard bracket without causing a five match limit problem) the one seed will only get three matches. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Kansas High School wrestler to get 72 matches! What is the record? Has anyone exceeded 200 matches in a four year varsity career? I don't believe so and that is just 50 matches per year. Many, many Kansas teams do not field a full lineup so that further diminishes match numbers. If your team is not in a league it is almost impossible to get matches the weekend before regionals. The point system allows more matches but it KILLS the weekday duals because coaches are unwilling (and rightfully so) to burn up points for 1, 2, or 3 matches.

Honestly can we just give up the 72 match hallucination! Under the current system a Kansas high school wrestler will be lucky to get 50. If you spend all of your time on the front side of a bracket and getting seeded where you get a bye, then 45 is a push. That is the reality side of the story.

Will,

I can't quite leave it on that note. No change and status quo is not my approach. I have been an advocate of some change at the youth, high school, and college level for several years. You know I have been outspoken on it. I am just not necessarily for all the changes you are advocating although I agree with some of them that you advocating. Just because a person is not supportive of all the changes that you want does not mean that the other person is anti-change or for the status quo.

I am sure you are not for some of the changes I would want. I would like to see high school weight classes change to something like 106, 114, 122, 128, 134, 140, 146, 154, 162, 172, 185, 200, 225 and 275. If international is only around 264 at the top, I think we can lower the topside back down to 275. I am guessing you would not be an advocate for those proposed weight class changes but it would increase competition for the lower and middle weights at regionals and state which is something you seem to desire. When you spread the weight classes you definitely bring more quality competitors into your weight class.

What you are describing would be wonderful for Kansas wrestling. I would love to see Pittsburg, Newman, Emporia State, Washburn, and Fort Hays State in spirited duals and tournaments with lineups loaded with former Kansas high school wrestlers.

What many do not know having not been around Kansas wrestling long enough is that the point system we currently use is a vast improvement over the previous system that was used. Before the point system, schools were allowed 8 dual dates (which could be either a single or a double) and four tournament dates whether they were one or two day events. That is it! Now, do the math. If you wrestled all double duals you could get 16 matches in and if you wrestled all two-day tournaments you could get another 20 matches in for a total of 36 matches. Realistically, there aren't that many two-day tournaments out there and you would have to do some constructive scheduling to accomplish this.
So, on the average a wrestler got between 30-32 matches before regionals and state. Now, wrestlers are getting over 40 matches in the regular season easily. So, try to explain to me, how the point system has not been a vast improvement over what we had for years. Lastly, I know I am old, but my senior year I wrestled 22 matches. Yes, I would say we have made progress.

Vince, you have just made is harder for all the smaller kids that this is probably the only sport they have with a level playing field. Moving up to 106 the bottom end and then a weight every 8 pounds would big a big step backwards. I realize your vantage point is that of a father with a bigger kid, but don't take opportunities away from the smaller kids.

24/7

Vince,

My number one problem is that there is NO CHANGE. I am not saying we should do everything that anyone advocates. The problem is NOTHING is happening. I am looking for help to overhaul the CHANGE process because it is broken. I am taking an approach that impacts all of wrestling. I am not motivated by any personal agenda. Your motive is clear. Your son is in that area of weight classes in which you feel there isn't enough opportunity. However, the demographics and distribution clearly point out that more weight classes are needed in the middle of the bell curve than out on the tails. Also supporting that is the fact that 24/7 pointed out. If you are a little guy there are very little other athletic opportunities. The weight classes as they are now are supported by data and a clear line of thought. Try to explain why a team shouldn't be allowed to travel more than 500 miles to an event? All that is supported by is those who can't figure out or don't want to figure out how to make it happen. How many times do you see 215 and 285 open? How many times do you see any weight between 130 and 171 open? That should easily put your question to rest. Your quest is with an a national organization that changed 16 rules this year! If it was feasible they would be looking at it. My enemy is a obstacle course filled with unreasonable and unrealistic challenges at the local level where my tax dollars fund the decision makers. Your post reads like you are tired of my plight to make something, anything happen. I need your support not a post that makes it appear that you think I am out of line.

I don't know the year they changed this policy but I wrestled under the one you described. It was doing something to get 140 matches in your four year career. This change was definitely a positive change but it took years to make happen. The problem with the new system is that it eliminates the weekday duals. Those are the events that can spark student support and popularize our sport. It is also a problem to me that Rick Bowden says there is a medical concern for our athletes "joints" if they wrestle more matches. I guess he must believe that HS wrestlers have stronger "joints" in Indiana, Texas, etc. than they do in Kansas.

Hello Brian. I should send you a copy of the email I sent Coach Will Cokeley on the process for Rule recommendations. I will try to explain briefly cause as you know I can get long-winded. All Kansas public and private schools 7-12 that provide extra curricular activities are govnered by KSHSAA. If I as a coach want a rule changed.
1. I submit the change to KWCA class rep.
2. He submits to KWCA Board of Directors.
3. The President of the KWCA then complies all rule
recommendations to be passed out the state tournament for all
Kansas Head coaches to review.
4. We as rank and file members vote on the rule changes.
5. The recommendations/changes are then collected by the class
rep and returned to KWCA president.
6. The KWCA BOD meet a week after state high school tournaments
the recommendations/changes are reviewed/tallied for % of
yes coaches want or no coaches do not want.
7. President of KWCA reviews the recomemendations with the KCA
8. The KCA presents a package of rule recommendations to KSHSAA
staff for reveiw.
9. The staff of KSHSAA and the KCA and KWCA President is
invitied to present to the KSHSAA executive board.
10. If a recommendation has the % of votes from membership and
with support of KSHSAA staff the items are voted on by the
77 member KSHSAA BOD.
I hope this helps you and others understand it is a process and it is extremely diffuclt for me. I serve on four wrestling board and it is very rewarding and I enjoy working for Kansas wrestling. But as a member of KSHSAA BOD it is a diffuclt position and often times I can get lost in all the policy decision making process. I know on the USAW Kansas Kids Board. Many of you would just say Gonzo how in the hell did that rule get in their. Or on the NWHOF Board how do we get a person in to the HOF. Or the KWCA board most of you are very understanding that we are trying to get a dual state passed. But the KSHSAA board it is like living our American Government class our senior year. I think after two years on this board. I might be better suited to work in the Kansas House of Representatives? I learned how to PM today. Ianswered over 20 plus messages. Some as far back as 75 days ago. So you can PM me and I will respond! Now the process I listed above is the one we KWCA have generally followed. But Coach Harris of Baldwin may have some short cuts he used the past two years and this past month our new President James Stout of Abilene. I know he can not wait to get to Topeka with his recommendations. RMG
_________________________
RMG


In step 6, if more than 90% of the coaches do not support an issue Rick Bowden will not take it to the next level. I have been told this by several coaches and members of these bodies who are wrestling advocates. For instance, I was told by a coach who votes on the KSHSAA board that he would have to vote no to allowing coaching year round even though he is in support of it. He said his league had a number of coaches who were against it because they didn't want to be forced to coach to keep up with those who wanted to. Since he didn't have full support he would have to vote it down. This process is ridiculously complicated and it is apparent that it was put in place to work against change. If 51% of the supporting body wants to change something then it should be changed! I should be able to bring suggestions to the board and lobby for change.

Will,

First, for the record I think you know I like and respect you. I find it admirable that you are fighting so hard to make changes that you believe in. I have tried to do the same with causes I feel passionately about like the addition of more college wrestling programs and the addition of more weight classes for heavier wrestlers at the high school and college level.

However, I do feel that I or anyone else can be supportive in general with some of your changes but that they can comment when they disagree with some of your proposals, statements or methods you are employing to implement the changes. You have made some statements about this overall issue that I don't believe to be absolutely true and I think I have the right to make objection to them.

As far as my having some personal interest in my quest for more weight classes for heavier wrestlers, I have never denied that. I believe that saying that goes something like necessity is the mother of invention is true and that it can be a good thing overall not just for the person who comes up with the inventive thought. I truly believe wrestling overall would benefit if we could get greater participation from all the bigger athletes that we have playing football. There are a lot of them who do not wrestle and I think wrestling needs more of them in our sport. I believe it would help to get football coaches to encourage more of them to wrestle if we had more weight classes available for them. As far as my recommendation on this particular post for high school weight changes, they would never happen in time to benefit my son who is going to be a senior next year. Also I believe my weight changes do have more weight classes in the middle weight for what I believe is the current bell curve for high school juniors and seniors. I believe varsity weights should be structured for juniors and seniors.

I would love to see us just be able to add more weight classes for the heavier wrestlers and not touch the lighter weights. The problem is that it seems if they are going to make any weight class changes that it is going to be a reduction not an addition of weight classes. I know a year ago Minnesota was considering going alone on reducing the number of weight classes.

I know there are a lot of real light wrestlers who would be hurt just as there are some over 300 pound kids limited by the 285 top limit on the other end. That is why I am suggesting just bumping three pounds and not eliminating it completely like I have seen people advocate on the national forum. Many people are concerned with the overall excessive weight cutting that is done to get a 103 wrestler for a lot of high schools. I don't think the Metro Classic even had a 103 pound match this year. I also think that the five poound increments in our middle weights can encourage excessive of weight cutting. The excessive weight cutting is still a black eye for wrestling. Also not all of the intervals I suggested were 8 pound differentials. In the lower middle four or five of the weight classes I suggested are only six pound differentials.

Welcome to the club Vince!

Name them...and then prove they are wrong Sportsloser0. You are a waste of good internet bandwidth and Talk Forum posting space!

Vince,

This whole post started out by pointing out that the KSHSAA doesn't change. It had NOTHING to do with any specific change that I or anyone would like to see. I simply pointed out that change was unlikely and cumbersome. I utilized the fact that 16 changes were made nationally in one year. Then you write

"I get upset too about certain things that do not change in wrestling. I get upset that there are not more weight classes for heavier wrestlers in high school, that Kansas does not have a D-I wrestling team, the KC metro area does not have a junior college team, and that college goes from 197 to 288. They are not the same changes that you have been calling for. I do not agree with some of the changes that you are calling for. Our Kansas system may not be perfect but you have to admit it has been good enough for wrestlers like Roberson, Bunch and Luedke who all did very good at the recent senior freestyle nationals and who also had very good collegiate careers. There have been others in recent years like Joe Johnston and Matt Murray. I think we also have a pretty good class of high school seniors this year who will achieve at a high level in college. I know there are some good kids wrestling successfully at the University of Nebraska at Omaha from Kansas. I think there actually is opportunity in Kansas for high school wrestlers of talent to succeed at a high level in college if the opportunity is taken advantage of. If our numbers who achieve success at the collegiate level are not as high as you think they should be, I believe that is due more to the fact that many wrestlers choose not to do the things in the off season to improve like summer wrestling in freestyle/greco roman and extra training for improvement in strength, speed and endurance. Also I think if we had a couple of D-I teams in Kansas like Iowa that it would help motivate more Kansas kids to do the things necessary to become successful college wrestlers."

This basically says you think things are okay. It looks like you support leaving the KSHSAA alone because we have had good wrestlers. That is taking a NO CHANGE stance. Reread and explain to me how I was to intepret this otherwise. You ask me to admit that things are good enough. THEY ARE NOT! Those guys got to where they are by going above and beyond what was offered. They are not the measuring stick for whether or not the present KSHSAA system is "ok". So I am not going to admit the KSHSAA doesn't need to change because Shawn Bunch is a great wrestler.

Sport0,

List what you would like me to substantiate with data. List what I have questioned and not supported with data, facts, or plain old common sense...

Further, name the coaches and wrestlers that I have dogged. I want to see the quote from my post. Back up your posts with some data and facts.

Tell you what Sport0. Pledge a contribution to the FHSU Wrestling Endowment. Prove to me that you made the donation and I will double it if you will promise to never post on "our" board again.