NEW TEAM RANKINGS! New format - Top 10 at each weight!


2008-09 All-Class Ranking:

TEAMS - All-Class:

1. Goddard - 6A
2. Wichita Heights - 6A
3. Derby - 6A
4. Emporia - 5A
5. Bishop Carroll - 5A
6. Clay Center - 4A
7. Norton - 321A
8. Smith Center - 321A
9. Colby - 4A
10 - Andale - 4A


103
1. Colby Watters - 9 - ARK - 5A
2. Roger Windham - 12 - DB - 6A
3. Luke Cole - 12 - AB - 4A
4. Bo Pursel - 9 - LS - 5A
5. Aaron Seybold - 9 - PT - 5A
6. Austin Hood - 9 - LOU - 4A
7. Konner Kriss - 9 - COL - 4A
8. Caleb Thomas - 9 - AC - 5A
9. Codie Dean - 11 - VC - 5A
10t. Chris Ceman - 11 - PH - 321A
10t. Colby Witten - 9 - MZ - 6A


112
1. Alan Callahan - 12 - BAL - 4A
2. Taylor Moeder - 10 - SJA - 4A
3. Kenneth Ornelas - 12 - CH - 4A
4. Isaac Ruiz - 11 - JC - 6A
5. Adrian Salas - 11 - LB - 5A
6. Dalton Davis - 10 - LA - 321A
7. Dalton Miller - 10 - WC - 6A
8. Dane Norris - 10 - MH - 6A
9. Caleb Seaton - 10 - BS - 5A
10t. Uylesses DeShazer - 9 - WH - 6A
10t. Jack Wenzel - 12 - WN - 6A


119
1. Nathan Furches - 12 - CL - 4A
2. Tyler Stokes - 11 - GE - 5A
3. Jake Gentzler - 10 - AC - 5A
4. Zac Sparr - 11 - RH - 4A
5. Logan Singular - 11 - CC - 4A
6. Jeff Vesta - 12 - MH - 6A
7. Garret Jones - 11 - ARK - 5A
8. Blaine Smith - 11 - SS - 5A
9. Dan Weigel - 12 - PL - 321A
10t. Aaron Angiano - 11 - GC - 6A
10t. Billy Broeckelman - 10 - NO - 321A


125
1. Chase Nitcher - 11 - VC - 5A
2. Daniel DeShazer - 10 - WH - 6A
3. Chaz Lawrence - 12 - OS - 6A
4. Zach Tanenbaum - 10 - BVN - 6A
5. Justin Rose - 12 - EMP - 5A
6. Symon Seaton - 10 - BL - 4A
7. Derek Weller - 11 - PI - 4A
8. Dylan Penka - 10 - BC - 5A
9. Alex Bontz - 9 - WI - 4A
10. Steven Plott - 10 - SS - 5A


130
1. Trent Cox - 12 - MZ - 6A
2. Ryne Cokeley - 10 - SJA - 4A
3. Colt Rogers - 11 - SC - 321A
4. Chase Sanchez - 10 - EMP - 5A
5. Spencer Blew - 10 - LS - 5A
6. Kaenon Keiswetter - 11 - NO - 321A
7. Rylan Dalke - 12 - NT - 5A
8. Zach Jesseph - 12 - CH - 4A
9. Nick Schwager - 11 - GB - 5A
10. Kash Biddle - 11 - ARK - 5A


135
1. C.J. Napier - 12 - CO - 4A
2. Kendric Maple - 12 - WH - 6A
3. Bryce Hood - 11 - LOU - 4A
4. Danny Floyd - 11 - OS - 321A
5. Tyler Anderson - 11 - CC - 4A
6. Sal Tovar - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Skylar McCombs - 10 - DB - 6A
8. Ricky Creek - 12 - MRV - 321A
9. Tanner Weber - 12 - WE - 321A
10. James Medlin - 12 - HS - 4A


140
1. Parker Madl - 11 - BV - 6A
2. Dustin Zahorsky - 12 - SL - 321A
3. Joey Dozier - 11 - GC - 6A
4. Cade Blair - 11 - VC - 5A
5. Cody Shavlik - 11 - DB - 6A
6. Linwood Peoples - 12 - BVNW - 6A
7. Cameron Jesseph - 12 - CH - 4A
8. Codie Bontz - 11 - WI - 4A
9. Jesse Gantz - 12 - ST - 321A
10. Zack Bainter - 12 - NO - 321A


145
1. Mitchell Means - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Cas Spangler - 12 - BE - 321A
3. Colby Crank - 12 - HT - 5A
4. Cole Zoglman - 12 - GP - 321A
5. Kyle McGoldrick - 11 - VC - 5A
6. Tyler Davis - 11 - MCP - 5A
7. Trevor Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
8. Jake Walker - 11 - STA - 5A
9. Josh Rodriguez - 11 - UL - 4A
10. Jake Hattabaugh - 10 - AN - 4A


152
1. Chris Watson - 12 - AC - 5A
2. Ryan Houlden - 12 - GD - 6A
3. Jordan Brown - 12 - PT - 5A
4. Nathan Sommer - 12 - PV - 4A
5. Travis Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
6. Todd Curtis - 11 - GE - 5A
7. Corey Engstrom - 11 - HOI - 321A
8. Tyler Sutherland - 12 - LB - 5A
9. Derek Newell - 12 - UL - 4A
10. Blake Fulbright - 12 - MZ - 6A


160
1. Tyler Caldwell - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Kyle Detmer - 12 - BC - 5A
3. Benny Armstrong - 11 - AN - 4A
4. David Lalo - 12 - OE - 6A
5. Ryan Wuthnow - 11 - AB - 4A
6. Chaston Hoeme - 12 - SC - 4A
7. Jess Lemon - 12 - CH - 4A
8. Ethan Mumaw - 10 - JW - 4A
9. Tyler Baughman - 10 - LS - 5A
10. Camron Leupold - 10 - HIA - 4A


171
1. Chase Nelson - 12 - WH - 6A
2. Alex Feldkamp - 12 - DB - 6A
3. Jake Price - 12 - CV - 4A
4. Breck Arnberger - 12 - CB - 4A
5. Jonathan Truman - 11 - KMC - 5A
6. Greg Curtis - 12 - GE - 5A
7. Cole Geisen - 12 - HOL - 4A
8. Josh VanHolland - 12 - MV - 5A
9. Grant Hinckley - 12 - LS - 5A
10. David Blazevic - 11 - ON - 6A


189
1. Boaz Beard - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Mark Kolmer - 11 - EMP - 5A
3. Joel Marrs - 12 - CC - 4A
4. Aron Elsen - 12 - GB - 5A
5. Nate Davis - 12 - LB - 5A
6. Luke Hirschler - 12 - BC - 5A
7. Brandon Reif - 12 - WC - 6A
8. Darnell Bortz - 12 - PRT - 4A
9. Nathan Wessell - 10 - LS - 5A
10. Ryan Revoir - 12 - OE - 6A


215
1. Kyle Caylor - 11 - WNW - 6A
2. Steven Kyler - 12 - EL - 321A
3. Tanner Kriss - 12 - CB - 4A
4. Jacob Nowak - 12 - STA - 5A
5. Jake Woten - 12 - OE - 6A
6. Howard Johnson - 12 - GB - 5A
7. Josh Hicks - 11 - GD - 6A
8. Jake Cole - 12 - BC - 5A
9. Michael Patenaude - 12 - CC - 4A
10. Kendall Pierce - 12 - CIR - 4A


285
1. B.J. Finney - 11 - AN - 4A
2. Brock Heithaus - 11 - WNW - 6A
3. Lucas Vincent - 11 - ON - 6A
4. Lorenzo Serna - 12 - EMP - 5A
5. Tony Marquez - 12 - BC - 5A
6. Kyle Westmoreland - 12 - DB - 6A
7. J.J. Rice - 11 - PH - 321A
8. Ross Addison - 12 - CI - 321A
9. Ricky Gomez - 12 - LB - 5A
10. Michael Starnes - 12 - AC - 5A

i see you put finney above heithaus. what made you give him the #1 spot? just curious

Chief, love the updates, and I love Cokeley and Moeder, but those 2 can't should not score more points a then the entire Lansing, Gardner, Colby, Clay Center, etc. Should they?

24/7

He beat Heithaus and was previously #2.

Do you happen to know the score?

In a 4A or 5A tournament, no. In the All-Class tournament they would.

St. James Academy:
112 - 2nd Place
130 - 2nd Place

Gardner:
119 - 2nd Place
152 - 4th Place
171 - 6th Place

Clay Center:
189 - 3rd Place
135 - 4th Place
119 - 5th Place
215 - 9th Place

Colby:
215 - 3rd Place
103 - 7th Place
171 - 9th Place

Lansing:
103 - 4th Place
171 - 7th Place
189 - 9th Place
160 - 10th Place

2-1 in OT.

Eric:

I have to agree with Mike on this one. I also think that Cokeley and Moeder are great wrestlers and I think Mike Medina is making some nice progress with the St. James team in the short time that they have been in existence but I don't see anyway they are that high yet as a team. They took 11th out of 20 in the Johnson County Classic and 11th out of 18 this weekend at Derby. Sorry but that should not translate to that high of a ranking in a Kansas all class team ranking. I don't think that Aquinas should be ranked that high either but even in all class tournament I think Aquinas would finish higher than St. James just like they did at the Johnson County Classic. I know Gardner Edgerton would.

At 112 Jack Wenzell won head to head against Uylesses DeShazer at the Carroll tornament so he should be rankrd in there too.

Besides Gardner-Edgerton, I also agree that Lansing should be a top ten team. I just saw how many points they scored at Eudora. I have also seen how many more points that Gardner Edgerton scored at the JC Classic than St. James.

Eric, you need to consider even using your standards for ranking teams that St. James had two 1st place winners at JC Classic and still only finished 11th out of 20 teams. A lot of an all class tournament for team scoring would depend on how you would set up the all class tournament. Are you going to let the top six placers from 6A, 5A, 4A and 3-2-1A in the tournament, the top 4 or just the top 2. The more you let in the tournament the less influence only two top wrestlers could have. As is shown by how St. James finished at JC Classic with two champions.

I think you need to rank teams by a different criteria. When people are looking at an all class team ranking they really want to know who the top ten teams are and not who would finish in the top ten of a tournament of your individual weight class rankings. To me it should be how they would finish in a team tournament format whether by dual or individual bracket tournament. I think dual would be better for a ranking of teams but even if by individual bracket it should be a format where you take the whole team to the tournament.

As I have stated before, there are entirely different dynamics for each tournament. It is my intent that the All-Class team rankings reflect how a grand state type tournament might turn out. I have been clear that the rankings are not about Dual strength. They attempt to simulate the top 4 placers of each class in a 16 man bracket. It would be similar to a National tournament.

In contrast to the JOCO classic, many of the teams that placed above SJA would have ZERO placers in this type of elite tournament. Taking nothing away from those team efforts, teams such as BVW or MV who placed 3rd and 6th at JOCO, have no wrestlers that are ranked in All-Class. How would that justify a higher ranking than a team with two finalists? BVNW, ON, BVN and BV have 1 wrestler each ranked in the top 10 statewide.

In my opinion, these rankings give us that glimpse of a Grand State tournament. We already have individual class rankings and pursue team titles in all 4 classes. Having said that, even if you took the top teams to an elite tournament, entering all 14 wrestlers from each team, I don't think it would change these rankings much. Understand that Moeder and Cokeley would still finish very high and many wrestlers that scored points at JOCO would score very few or none. In fact out of the current top ten, the only reason that we are having this discussion is the inclusion of SJA. The other teams did not change that much. I don't think many would argue that Goddard, Wichita Heights, Derby and Emporia are elite teams in Kansas. I applied the team scoring for such a tournament and SJA narrowly outscored GE and CC.

Did that clear things up?

Eric

No it really does not clear up things to me. Are you saying that a team with two qualifiers who are both going to end up placing second in a tournament of 224 participants is going to end up 9th in team scoring in that tournament? I just think if that was really possible that they would have placed a lot higher at Johnson County where they had two champions and even a third place finisher. In all probability in such a tournament they are not going to scoring as many premium points as they would in other tournaments. I really don't mean to be picking on St. James because they are a fine well coached team that is on the rise. I just think this is a flawed concept for doing an all class team ranking. It seems like you are not giving enough credit to the depth of teams like 24/7 mentioned who are going to have more placers in the top 4 of all 14 weight classes and how many points they might be scoring on the backside even from those wrestlers who do not end up placing at this mythical Grand State tournament. They may not be currently ranked in your top ten but they could still be scoring points on the backside in such a tournament. I have seen in action how valuable backside team scoring can be in a state tournament.

I would not be that interested in team scoring in such a grand state tournament. Such a tournament to me would be a lot more about individual accomplishment rather than team accomplishment. I think the results of such a tournament would be making more of a statement about individuals rather than teams. However, it would be fun to see that type of grand state individual tournament.

But as far as a team grand state championships goes, I like to see the dual format first. If it was going to be a non dual team competition format, I think it would be a more fair assessment of the top all class teams to have the top finishing four finishing teams in each class compete in a grand state team championship in a regular individual bracket tournament.

I have had my say on this issue. I will stop and listen to a possible reply from Eric and anyone else who cares to contribute to this particular issue.

Good discussion guys! I appreciate the input and am certainly not bothered by the valid points you have brought up.

My criteria becomes more valid the tougher the tournament. The confusion comes from a lack of understanding about the differences in formats. A Grand State tournament would have 16 wrestlers consisting of the top 4 from each class. Vince's points about entire teams, class tournaments, JOCO and especially Dual strength are irrelevant. The Dual format is my favorite by far, yet has no relevance in the All-Class discussion. I am considering adding another Team ranking that does include that distinction. You are correct that SJA will likely not be in the top 10 in 4A. Yet.....most of the teams that finished ahead of SJA at JOCO would have zero, one or two wrestlers in the tournament and would be outscored by SJA. In 1976, Goodland won Class 3A and KMC won Grand State. In the same way, many of those wrestlers that placed at JOCO would go 0-2 in a Grand State format and score zero points.

Admittedly, my new team ranking criteria gives us a more specialized view of team strength. The top teams are unchanged by it, but the lower half of the top 10 changes quite a bit. I will consider either adding a Dual team strength ranking or go back to my previous criteria on ranking the teams. Once I did the math, I just knew we would have a discussion about the inclusion of SJA. If I had overlooked the true scoring and put CC or SC in place of SJA, we would not have heard any objections.

Stay tuned!

Eric ... First, you've done a good job with the rankings! I think limiting the rankings to the top 10 was a good move.

I understand what you are trying to do with a "fantasy" wrestling tourney.

Big tourneys are funny! We have relative recent history where Paola won their division with only four wrestlers (3 Champs and 1 runner-up) We also have Scott City winning their division without a finalist!! In your "fantasy" event, Paola would have been victorious!

I don't want to suggest that your efforts are pure conjecture as a lot of thought goes into making an educated guess!

But in the format you've laid out ... a team that had 3 or 4 champs could win it again! I agree, that it is very likely that a consolation wrestler in a divisional State tourney, would go 0-2. My prediction ... team scores would be extremely low. The winning team score????

I agree about the low scores. Goddard would be in the 90's with 3rd place in the 60's. SJA would have about 40 points with two finalists.

Eric in your fanasty tournament how can you rank more than 4 kids from 1 class because they wouldn't even make it to the big dance???

Is Moeder even at 112? He's ranked 3rd in the 4A rankins at 119, and he finished 3rd at Derby at 119.

He will wrestle half of his matches at 112 and likely be there at the end.

Have him and Ornelas gone head to head this year?

Good question. Currently there are 5 weights with that issue. In order to give priority to the individual rankings, I will not disqualify wrestlers based on that. In those weights, 103,112,130,160 and 189, the positions are 9th,10th,10th,8th/10th and 9th. The corresponding team points don't change the team ranking.