Steve,

You stated that you would hope that a competitive wrestler, responsible parent and a competent coach would choose the HS division over going for another Kids title. So now we are back to the JV level HS wrestlers supposedly helping themselves by wrestling middle schoolers. There are plenty of seventh graders that have pre 9/1 birthdates and wrestle 14U. I can think of two sophomores in the past that also wrestled 14U. Kansas is in the extreme minority that still has High School wrestlers chasing Kids medals after their season rather than advancing their skills by FS/GR competition or off season HS Folkstyle. It's not a "fair" issue. It's a competitive advancement issue.

I'm always more concerned about who showed up as opposed to how many! But you're right we should always have a hundred percent attendance.

I'm not sure Kansas is the minority, Tulsa Nationals and Reno Worlds, have a 15U division. What about your High School Froshmen that weigh 80-90 lbs.? By not allowing them to wrestle 14U they will be giving up 10-20 lbs. in the High School Division.

Speaking of weights, what will the High School weights be? My suggestion: Keep 100 and 250. For the rest of the weights add 5 lbs to the High School weights plus the weight allowance after certification. This way High School kids will be able to wrestle basically the same weight they did in High School and have a True Grand State Champion.

The wrestlers are still divided into two year age divisions. The label of JV wrestler or Middle school wrestler is irrelevant! The wrestlers still fall into the same two year age division regardless of what grade they happen to be in and enjoy no more of an advantage or disadvantage then any other age division Even if you do perceive an unfair advantage for the freshman surly you understand that in the following year the 8th grad would enjoy the same advantage. And again if you think its not right, how can you accept that 14year olds would be wrestling 18year olds in the High school division? Don’t misunderstand me I like the Idea of a High school division but logically speaking you are on both sides of the fence on this issue. How does a division of wrestlers by two year increments hinder competitive advancement? I think you may be bestowing some power or influence into this issue that just doesn’t exist. You mention the High school kids should be improving their skills with off season folk style practice. Isn’t that exactly what they are doing by participating in the USA Wrestling folkstyle series?? There is plenty of time for the freestyle season and I would like to see evidence that participation in the folkstyle series negatively effects the advancement or participation level of our freestyle wrestlers!By adding the High school division we will actually be increasing the number of “High school wrestlers chasing kids medals” So does this mean you think it’s a positive or a negative change?

Some High School seniors could be 19, so you could have an 8th grader wrestling a 19 year old. Give the option to wrestle 14U or High School if your in the age group, that makes the most sense. As stated before, these kids have been wrestling each other, every other year since they were 6. Why should it change at 14?

Lets not get into a debate about the fairness of 8th vs 9th or 9th vs seniors or anything else for that matter. Lets all join hands and raise our voting cards when asked to pass this CHANGE. The CHANGE has to be ratified “AS IS” for the coming season or it will get sent back to the board for discussion, study and revision that may lead to its death! One thing that cannot be argued is that it gives a greater number of wrestlers the opportunity to compete in the state tournament series. A good measure of the success will be the numbers in the HS division at subs versus the 16U numbers from 2009. Another good measure will be the number of USA Cards sold to those above 16U. I am willing to be big money that you will see a significant increase in both of these numbers.

To me this opens up the door for even more opportunities in the future. USA Wrestling has a Cadet and Junior division at Folkstyle Nationals. We should create these divisions in our state tournament. Lets support the most significant, positive change in years to our state tournament series and see how it works before we pass judgment based on negative speculation. Try it this year and we will get some data to work with.

I voted yes!

Will, I do not believe that this has to be passed as is. Last year we made some changes to the how the coaches would receive passes for the state tournament. As I recall several different ideas were presented before the vote was taken on the ammended change.

Richard would you please clarify for me?

I personally would not vote for it "As Is". It will not take effect until next year if it does pass. I'm just saying 14U should be 14U, they should not have to be forced to the High School division. They should have the option....sound familiar?

It sounds as if it will take effect for THIS upcoming season. Correct me if I am wrong.

Steve,

1. The label of High School and Middle School divisions are certainly not irrelevant. That is precisely why they compete against only themselves the entire season.

2. I do perceive that the high schoolers have a distinct advantage. However that's not the main reason for my position.

3. Undeniably, states that have recognized this reality have moved into the passing lane with their level of freestyle/greco competitiveness. Some of our high schoolers are spending an entire month chasing a kids division medal instead of competing in either a grand state scenario or jumping in on FS/GR.

4. Ask yourself these questions. Why have the top wrestling states in the nation changed from our current format to theirs? Has it contributed to their success? They place higher than us at national events and provide more DI opportunities for their wrestlers. Could it also help us?

We will never know until we try.

Chief, then why have a 15 year old middle school kid wrestle High School? And, Do we really want a 12U division, an 8th grade division, and then a High School Division? The 8th (14U) division would be a one year only division.

Missouri DOES NOT allow HS wrestlers to compete in their Kids State tournament regardless of their age. We are in the process of evaluating all of the kids state tournaments to get more data. We could eliminate this problem if we would move Kids state during high and create a middle school state. Even so at some point age and grade are going to collide and cause a splitting issue.

I will argue until the cows come home that HS wrestlers have a clear advantage over 8th graders. Five day a week practices, full time professional coach, competing against much older competition all year, etc. Of course there are always exceptions like Levi Eck, Ryne, and other successful 8th graders. I would vote to allow them the freedom to move up. I clearly think the some kids who have just gotten introduced to wrestling in MS or JH might take on the Kids Series if they didn't have to wrestle high school wrestlers. If nothing else it will give them an opportunity to qualify for state as the spots will be open.

The solution would be to have Cadets and Juniors so you would basically have 8th, 9th, and 10th in one class and 11th and 12th in the other. We will then have to align with the date of birth being January 1 instead of Sept 1. Of course this will be unpopular for one year as those who are negatively impacted will not like that either.

Chad,
I do agree with your statement about being able to amend it but at this past weekend's meeting I was told we COULD NOT amend it. I think we might have set precedence last year and I hope you are right. If a little tweaking can make it work then lets do it. One thing we CANNOT do is add more wrestlers to the state tournament which this plan does not do.

Leaving 14u the same and adding the High School division will not add wrestlers to the State Tournament either. With the weights I proposed it would actually eliminate some. Why would the birthdate have to go to Jan. 1st? Just out of curiosity.

There are lots of other freshmen that could still wrestle 14u that should wrestle high school, and I know most of them probably will, under this new scenario. Haralson, Johnson, Bradley, just to name a few. I get uncomfortable when someone points out one of my kids when there are lots of others deserving of the same mention, not that you were trying to slight anyone......you know what I'm saying.

Here is the million dollar question: as a club representative, are you going to risk the lashes from parents on your club, if you vote FOR this change? I feel like, though it isn't perfect, it is what is best for most of the kids. A LOT of people will NOT see it that way. Kind of like Pelosi and crew pushing thru their health care bill, when the majority of Americans are opposed to it. Their excuse is that it is for the "common good". I happen to feel like this would be for the common good of KS wrestling, and Pelosi is crazy enough to think the health care plan is for the common good, even though I think it is all about gaining control over more of our lives. There will be lots of people saying the same thing about those of us that vote for this change. I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that it will help KS wrestling in the long haul. The numbers will tell the story. There are lots of kids' state champs that didn't do well in high school, and it may well be because they weren't pushed like this change will do. They worry about kids' state titles instead of high school state titles. Obviously, both means something, but one means more than the other. Just like winning high school state doesn't mean as much as winning NCAA. etc etc.

Cadets and Juniors, By USA definition use the Jan 1 birthdate. In fact, the majority of state and USA events use teh Jan 1 birthdate. There is NO WAY we want to create the confusion of having the age groups with the same name but a different date range. We already have enough issues with our Sept 1 as of date when going to other tournaments.

I agree with your assessment on the number of participants.

I would also support, and get a lot of parents mad, changing to the USA weights. We would see more good matches if we narrowed down the number of weight classes. Why did I bring this up? Fire away.............

I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia

All four of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets.

And how many allow kids from their border states to enter their own State Tournament?

Just wondering.

Another topic for another day.

Don't know that or the price of their nachos at the tournament.