No certifying is required for kids wrestling, he would just have to make the 152 weight at subs, district, state, in order to wrestle 145 bracket for kids state.

one problem I see is if the amendment includes that a 14u can choose to wrestle that or up in the new high school division. If that is in the amendment that will be in conflict with the constitution and may not even be able to be voted on. What if the freshmen that are 14u wrestle 14u and the rest of the high school wrestles in the high school division? If a freshman is over the age limit he/she will wrestle in the high school (18u) division.

If the membership approves an amendment, it is my understanding that it will not be able to take effect until the executive board votes on it at NEXT September's meeting, hence making it a part of the 2010-2011 season. If the question is voted on and approved by the body, it will go into effect this year since the executive board has already approved it. Correct me if I am wrong.

I can really relate to and appreciate Shawn Budkes commments. I am the mother of a 13 year old, soon to be 14 year old 8th grader who is not yet 90 lbs. The 7 lb. allowance concerns me and seems unfair. My son is on the smaller side and will be doing good to be close to 103 next year as a freshman. I know of others who are or would have been in this situation.

I hope the right decisions are made...please don't forget about the little guys. Mr. Budkes is absolutely right...there are already enough sports that take the little guys out of the running due to size!

The KSHSAA middle school "weight divisions for seventh and eighth grade wrestlers may be 75 lbs., 80 lbs., 85 lbs., 90 lbs., 95 lbs., 100 lbs., 105 lbs., 110 lbs., 115 lbs., 120 lbs., 127 lbs., 134 lbs., 141 lbs., 148 lbs., 155 lbs., 165 lbs., 180 lbs. and 265 lbs."

In my opinion the part of the by-laws that prevent a wrestler wrestling up an age group at qualifiers and state would have to be changed at the same time. I would suggest that it be worded so any wrestler may wrestle up one age group above their actual age.

Beeson,

You asked about the Middle School Weights....here's my 2 cents:

1. I recommend we keep the 14U weights the same as they are now.

2. My concern is that if we start adding additional changes then there is a greater chance for debate and people not voting for the change. Example: Someone may support adding the high school with the choice to wrestle 14U but not support changing the 14U weights. If you roll all of that into 1 amendment then you may not get the result we are trying for.

My understanding is that the overall goal is to get approval for high school kids to wrestle in the kids tournaments; with a secondary goal of setting conditions that would allow for a potential Grand State. If that is true then I wouldn't mess with the 14U weights. We have had them for years and they don't seem to be broke.....therefore don't fix what isn't broken.

It seems that a majority of people on here are in favor of adding the high school age group therefore, I would focus your amendment on that. I think you would get the support you need by doing what you proposed without changing the 14U weights.

From my point of view, the only question I have is why the 7 lb allowance? I understand where you are coming from but I really don't think it is needed. For example: A high school 125 lb wrestler may not want to pull the weight for kids club; if we give them 7 lbs he is really wrestling 132 lbs for kids. At the same time, you may have a 132 lb high school wrestler stay and wrestle at 132 for kids because they aren't pulling a lot of weight.

I think the 7 lb allowance is to try and get the kids to wrestle each other at the high school weights they wrestled at high school state, thus creating a grand state. I'm not sure that adding 7 lbs will give you that because there are too many other variables.

I support your idea but would like to see the 7 lbs weight allowance either not included or reduced to 2-3 lbs in addition to scratch.

Would like to know your thoughts.

Shawn Budke

Nothing says we can't have more than one admendment proposed for next year covering all of the concerns in this thread. The middle and high school weights have been talked about for years by many people for various reasons. One of the reasons being that it would free up additional mat space and allow more age groups to wrestle on larger surfaces.

Doug, I won't go as far as saying you are wrong but to date there has been no evidence put forth from the bylaws supporting this!! I am working hard to bring clarification to this issue and hopefully will have an answer prior to Salina. It would be a shame if we walked into the State Body meeting, conducted business, only to later learn it was handled inappropriately.

I would also add that the Executive Council has not approved the proposed primary amendment on this. They shall only provide a recommendation to the State Body. It will be up to the body with a 2/3 vote to approve a change of this nature.



There as been some good points brought forth on this amendment and would only hope if a good change is presented that we won't delay it for a year! That just doesn't make sense to me.

Update – As I mentioned above, I have continued to seek answers on why amending a main motion at the state body is not permitted. Unfortunately no answers of substance have been provided. I have sent a letter to each member of the Executive Council explaining the concerns regarding this issue and have asked each to carefully look into this. This is an important issue warranting better answers from our leaders to the members!

Our bylaws allow for a special meeting of the Executive Council and they can ultimately overturn Richard’s interpretation. In order for the meeting to take place (which I have planned for Sunday in Salina prior to the State Body meeting if not before) has to be requested by 4 members of the Executive Council, representing at least 3 Districts. These members include your District Director, Assistant Director and Freestyle Representative. If you have any concerns on this issue I strongly encourage you to drop a note to one of your directors (their email address can be found on the Directors page on the left) asking them to request a special meeting to at least discuss this issue. The deadline for the notice of this special meeting must be given by Wednesday the 28th!!!! If a request is not made for a special meeting the chances of this dying increases dramatically. This is an important issue and I believe transparency is critical. If you have any questions please feel free to email, pm, call me or post them.

Thanks!

Thank you all for your input.

Shawn, I think you have several valid points: The lightest weight being 110 is probably too heavy and the fewer changes made to the ammendment would make it more likely to pass. I do like the idea of taking on Middle School weights for the 14U division. But, there are 18 Middle School weights, and 18 Kids Division weights so I don't think it will make a big difference. We can address that next year.

My ammendment will be to replace the 16U division with a High School Division. The High School Division will also take on the High School weights: 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, and HWT. If a wrestler is in High School and age eligible for the 14U, they may choose which divison they will wrestle in for the State series.

elid2, I do not think wrestling up will be in violation of the constitution. My reasoning is, that if they are in High School they can wrestle the High School Division, and if they are 14U they can wrestle the 14U division. Basically they are eligible for both divisions, they just need to make the choice which division they want to wrestle in.

We still have a week before the meeting. I still welcome concerns and ideas.

All,

Well, it has been a while since I have visited this site and read up on some of the postings.

I see this is a lengthy thread and do not intend to read it in its entirety...

Would someone briefly describe what this motion is, so those of us that will show up next weekend will have an idea what we will be expected to vote on.

Or is this not a topic that the general body will be voting on.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff Broadbent - Mill Valley

Ned,

Please post the proposal in its entirety so that it can be evaluated by the general membership.

Jeff, basically the proposal is to eliminate the 16U division and call it "High School". The weight classes would remain the same. Freshmen would NOT be able to compete in 14U. This proposal would NOT increase the size of the state tournament but would offer and opportunity to fill the brackets at subs with high school wrestlers who were previously ineligible because of their age. It would purify the 14U to include only "kids" not high schoolers. The spirit of the proposal was to give more high school kids the OPPORTUNITY to wrestle. The proposal was nit picked today as discussion of the language in the proposal went down the path of "only those who were competing in high school which led to questions of students in good standing, etc.

The issue that is causing this thread to be of such great length is the interpretation of the by laws and when they can be amended, when the amendments become effective, and so forth.

Thanks

Those of us that are opposed to this proposal, basically would like for the 14 year old freshmen to have the option to wrestle in either division. I don't feel that we would be purifying the 14U but watering it down, by subtracting half of the participants. I agree with Will that the spirit of the proposal is to give more wrestlers the opportunity to compete, and I think that is a good thing. I just would like for it to be tweaked (ammended) a little.

My understanding - To vote this ("High School division) in this year the language in the proposal must remain EXACTLY the same as presented. Get that done first YES or NO for this year. There can be discussion about future changes to this division but Not by ammending the current proposal and still having it take place in the 2009/10 season or this year. At our district meeting - many people had valid questions and concerns about the current language and it intent. Future changes and the language will occur if the proposal passes. There is no reason to spend an excessive amount of hours on any particular topic if it has no chance of taking affect until the following season. Could we as a body have a written suggestion box that we could submit our ideas on proposed ammendmended changes.

For example: I am going to vote yes for the proposal in its current form. So that it takes affect this year.

My ammended suggestions that I drop in the box for this topic would be - Allow the 14 year olds who meet the age criteria to sign up for subdistrict, district and state for either the 14 & under division or the highschool division one or the other. Another question I would have is - if there is an eighth grader who is no longer 14 & under I assume he or she is automatically in the HS division. It can happen and I think it has happened that there have been a few eighth graders that are in the 16 & under group or HS age group this case. The current language has something about competed in HS in the current year - It doesn't say freshman, JV, varsity competition, etc. The weight classes of this change will be just another component of the discussion. Such as adding a 245lbs, or HS weights only, etc. But I like the idea personally of having a written signed, club name, and suggestion box - this would mean the board has a lot of extra reading - during their FREE TIME. The suggestion box might make the meeting go a little quicker. Allow 10 - 15 minutes of discussion - when the time is up move on in the meeting or drop you ideas in the suggestion box when the meeting is adjourned.

The best advice I have seen in this entire thread!

I disagree. I would rather get it right, or as close to right the first time. If this is pushed through just for the sake of change for this year (immediate gratification), I think we are doing a disservice to the kids that are going to be effected. If this does not take effect till next year, no one will be effected. If a poor proposal is accepted, the kids will suffer.

Beeson,

I like your amendment as you stated it a couple of posts above. Some other issues arose yesterday at our district meeting....

In the current proposal there are words to the effect of "a high schooler that competed on JV or Varsity". This raised concerns as to who is eligible. There are some schools that don't have high school wrestling and cannot co-op with other schools....therefore the kid has not competed on JV or High School. The question is are these kids still eligible.

One idea to alleviate confusion, is to get rid of the term "High School" age division and go to 18 and Under age Division. Do away with 16U age division (that is essentially what we are doing anyway) and just make a 18U age division (or you can make the max age fit what is allowed in high school).

BLUF: I like Beeson's amendment that allows freshmen that are 14U to have a choice to wrestle 14U or the High School division.

Shawn Budke

This is a perfect example of the reason why amending the proposal should be allowed. 200 minds are (sometimes) better than 25. If your change isn’t allowed we possibly prohibited kids from entering. If it is made and accepted, under the current way, we delay this change for a year! However, if we are allowed to tweak it as we should be able to we make it better TODAY!

I say keep it 18U as of the previous Sept.1 just like all the other age groups. Otherwise we are going to have kids possibly 19 and a half wrestling in this age group. KEEP it 18U!