But at 19 and a half year old state champion wont be able to compete?
Call it the High School Division!
If you were enrolled in a high school during the year of... then you are eligable.

It's kind of a croc that a kid can be a 19 1/2 year old HS state champ anyway....

I am trying to stay away from someone having to produce a valid lunch ticket in order to wrestle. It should be an 18U division period just for semantics purposes alone.
Personally I would prefer that it be a 17U division, period. I feel like the high schoolers and in particular the seniors have already had their state tournament. To refer to this as anything resembling a Grand State would be fraud regardless, because many of your state champions will be competing in other spring sports for their schools. With that thinking I believe the seniors that are going to most likely use this new division will be the also rans. Nothing wrong with that but I just feel the seniors or those over the age of 17 have had their shot and it's time to give the underclassmen a chance.
Has anyone put pencil to paper and figured out the minimum number of full size mats this will add to the tournament?

JUNIOR (Men)
Born 9/1/1990 & after, plus enrolled in grades 9-12

USA Wrestling defines this division already. This is from themat.com. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

It will not require

We already use full size mats for 16U so it will not require any additional mat space or a modification of the mat lay out for state. The subs and districts should anticipate more participants than we have had in the past.

Lets just assume we are looking at HS Juniors and Seniors only. There are a little more than 200 HS programs in the state with an average of 30 wrestlers. To be conservative figure only 1/3 of these programs have Jr and Sr wrestlers. We are looking at an OPPORTUNITY for 2,000 wrestlers to extend their Folkstyle season. Even if we only get 10% that is 200 more wrestlers or 50 per district. We need to give it a try this year and see how it works. We have to stop argueing over the wording of the amendment and splitting hairs. The proposal in its present status offers MORE kids the chance to compete in Kansas USA Wrestling. Isn't that what we are here for, the kids that is!

Yes we are here for the kids, but....I truely feel we will be sacrificing the 14U division. These kids, as a whole, are not physically, mentally or emotionally ready to compete with Jr.'s and Sr.'s. Just look at the All State rankings. 103 is the only weight with freshman in it.

We do not need to push this through for the sake of change. This proposal feels like a poor product being sold by High Pressure Sales. The only problem is we can't cancel the deal within 3 days once we come to our senses.

My club does not have one kid that will be effected either way by this proposal passing or failing. I am thinking of the kids, not in my club but statewide.

14U division will be weakened. It will be mainly an 8th grade division, except for the few "redshirted" 7th graders.

I'm sorry but I can not vote for a proposal knowing that it is not right. What do we lose from fixing it and making it RIGHT?

Chad, what do we have to do to put you in a poorly worded constitutional admendment today?

With the right birthday and/or a kid getting held back in held back early in his schooling then its very easy to have a Sr. over 19.
But the description that Cokeley gave wraps it up in a nut shell.
And yes, I hope this does produce a Grand State type turnout!

BLT,

This will not produce a Grand State type turnout for a couple reasons.

1) NHSCA Nationals and Flo Nationals are on the same weekend. Your elite wrestlers will be at these tournaments.

2) More than 50% of your state placers that are eligible do not participate now.

The only way to draw the big names in the state for a Grand State is if it is sanctioned by KSHSAA.

What i understand is that we can not revise it and it be in effect for this year? and if that is the case then why cant we pass it the way it is so that the seniors this year could still wrestle and then we get the amendment or whatever in before the deadline for next year? just and idea. Also i understand some freshman losing out on being at the top of the age division, but they have already have been wrestling uper classman all year so i dont see why its a HUGE deal.

I still do not understand the view that this motion cannot be revised and still go into effect this year. Our rules, per our constitution, allows this as has been pointed out. In fact, how long ago on this thread did someone ask Richard to explain his position. I would assume EVERYONE on this forum has a RIGHT to know how he justifies his position - and not just Richard doesn't play well with others - but where in Roberts Rules he gets the justification for this. And, Ned- what is your view?? Chad, Jeff, Shawn and others have approached this in a very rational, adult manner - trying to come up with an option that works for all - and have received no cooperation. Unacceptable.

BLT, why won,t they answer your question? and why did they not pass the motion to let the kids wrestle up in weight or age? huh? Beeson, coongrats. you are doing a good job in District 2

Hey Dean 70,
Welcome back to the talk fourm for another season. How are boys? Hows Robert?
Listen, I know you are very passionate about a few of the weight class and age issues. I HIGHLY encourage you to start talking to the new leadership of our district. If Chad thinks its best for the sport or if enough people are talking in his ear then he is a can do kinda guy.

I think somewhere in the bylaws it states that new proposals must be submitted by a certain deadline or date to get on the agenda or even be considered for the agenda. The new proposals get reviewed by exceutive committee when they have their meetings. Otherwise people would be bringing in written proposals on age groups, weight changes, length of season, online USA cards, virtual online wrestling (this could save money), remote weighins, all sorts of stuff and the meetings would go on and on and on and on. I am like everyone else I think I have a great idea - but never get a written proposal submitted ontime to get on the agenda. Nobody's fault but my own.

BLT,

I used 18U as an example only. I am not familiar enough with the high school rules on the ages and eligibility requirements. My intent was that the age cut off should be whatever it is for high school. Obviously (at least to me) the thing that makes the most sense is the Juniors category that USAW wrestling has already established.

My only hang up with this concept at all is the forcing of 14U to have to wrestle the high school division. Some on here have said "they have done it all year, what is the big deal". Well in my eyes it is a big deal because I think it will reduce the number of kids that are in that age category. If I am a freshman jv or lower wrestler then what is my incentive to continue after high school? Therefore, I don't think we will increase numbers with those type of kids.

I like the proposal and want to support it but I think we should give those freshman the choice. IMO giving the choice supports the most kids.

Here's a question to anyone.....

What is the overall purpose of this proposal? What is the intent behind this?

1. Create a Grand State?
2. Create More opportunities for kids?

If we get that answered then I think it helps frame the issue and help us focus on the type of solution.

Chad,

I still like your amendment without the weight allowance.

Shawn Budke

Shawn I am totally in your line of thinking. Yes, the 14 y.o.'s have been wrestling with the HS'rs all season but now being a 14 y.o. they can truly compete with their own age group and see what's out there for them as they progress.

I do not like the idea of moving it to grades 9-12. I truly feel you will discourage the numbers of 14 y.o.'s that continue. Kids wrestling has been an option after their wrestling season to match up with the power houses in their age group ...there is a huge difference between a 9th grader and a 12 grader....

Many times I've seen the placers at state not by their own account choose NOT to continue on with Kids' Wrestling after season because they want to move on to another sport or their just tired and need a break since they've been generally playing football and then wrestling and then they want to just relax a few weeks or so.

I really can't see the numbers growing outrageously if you add the 18 year olds....and feel the 14 y.o.'s will be the ones that your "turning off".

Sean, you are correct. There is a process for submitting new bylaw changes. These have to be submitted to Ned by July 31st via certified mail! Ned is then required to send each of the Executive Council members by August 31st a copy of these proposals (I am not sure this was done). These are then discussed at the Executive Council meeting and a recommendation is to be made. This process is for “NEW” proposals. It does not address amendment to these proposals!! Robert’s Rules of Order specifically addresses how amendments are to be made and explicitly permits them.

Pursuant to the requirements of our Bylaws and at the request of the necessary directors (which has been obtained. Thank you to those who have responded) a special meeting of the Executive Council shall be called by Ned for Sunday before the State Body Meeting. This will provide an opportunity to bring clarity to the issue of amending an amendment and I look forward to the discussion. Hopefully the council will see the importance of allowing amendments (within the scope of the original motion) and when the important proposals are presented later in the day, they will be handled appropriately.

Here is another perfect example of the importance of allowing amendments to proposals.

The motion as noted in the minutes of the Executive Council states this will be a "high school division". For those that are 15 and still in 8th grade you just eliminated them from competing in the kids qualifying tournaments. How does this make sense? If you vote on this and it is approved you just voted to keep kids out! If you vote it down because of its restrictive language then you just delayed a possible good change (with an amendment being allowed) for another year.

If the amendment is allowed, the verbiage could be slightly tweaked, making the proposal more appeasing and not prohibiting anyone from competing!

Richard, do you want to be the point person when the angry dad/mom questions why his son can’t wrestle?

I believe you will lose just as many 14u freshmen as you pick up from the junior senior crowd that couldn't wrestle before, if you do not allow the 14u freshmen to choose. I have a couple of freshmen that can still wrestle 14u that are now in their 2nd year of wrestling. At 14u, they can compete, but at HS level, they will be 2 and BBQ most likely at Subs. The state also has lots of freshmen that SHOULD wrestle HS division. Hopefully they will do that.

I wish the executive council would notify the membership of things like this that they are talking about at their meeting, so we can give input PRIOR to their meeting, not AFTER they have voted on something without anyone's input.

I propose that we change the 16 under division to a high school division. Any current high school athlete that has competed at the high school level, whare it was Varsity or JV would need to wrestle in this division at the qualifying tournaments this upcoming season. This would include 9th through 12 grade. James Cook, Smokey Valley Wrestling Club.

There were two priorities to this proposal. These would define the scope:

1. Remove high school wrestlers from 14U to make 14u, 12u, 10u, and 8u a "Kid's State".

2. To provide an opportunity for all high school (Junior by USA definition) wrestlers to compete in the qualifying series.

There is no intent to exclude any wrestlers but only an attempt to define what high school means which clearly, by USA definition, includes ALL wrestlers born after 9/1/1990. This would include 8th graders who are too old for 14U, wrestlers who were ineligible for their high school program (for whatever reason), wrestlers who were home schooled, etc. There was NEVER any intent to restrict participation.

We can split hairs all day long looking for the perfect wording. Heck, our by-laws in there present state need some fine tuning. At the end of the day MORE wrestlers will be permitted to wrestle if the amendment passes untouched and no one will be turned away.

If amendments to the amendment are allowed within the scope or intent of the author then it will be more clearly defined but the opportunity to wrestle will still exist.

If you vote no then a group of kids will be denied the opporuntity to compete this year which could be their last year.

We cannot improve without change.