Will,

I support the concept and agree that we need to make this change, however, words mean things. You of all people understand that.

If we adpot this as written, we are excluding a group of kids. It may be very small but it will exclude them. Here's an example based on the following quote of the proposal.....

"Any current high school athlete that has competed at the high school level, whare it was Varsity or JV would need to wrestle in this division at the qualifying tournaments this upcoming season."

Based on that sentence we will have kids that are not included. Is a freshman who did not wrestle JV or Varsity allowed to compete? According to this, NO.

Is a kid who does not have a chance to wrestle in high school because the school doesn't have wrestling have a chance to compete? According to this NO.

These are just 2 examples of where this proposal would exclude kids from wrestling. One can argue that this effected population would be very minimal. You can also argue that we can change it once we pass it and have it go into affect next year.....well that is the same argument some are using to get us to pass this now.....if we don't pass it we are eliminating an opportunity for a group of kids this year. I submit, that if we pass it as written we still have a population that we are eliminating....just a different group.

Also, more theoretical argument.....

1. If we don't allow 14U the choice to wrestle 14U I think we will see the numbers drop. I think more kids will choose not to wrestle when they are freshmen 14U than what we will gain by having Juniors and Seniors wrestle. Heck, I talked to about 4 or 5 high school kids last year at the Kids State tournament that were eligible to wrestle 16U and they did not compete. They did not see the value in doing so. Now we can argue all day whether that is the right attitude or not but the kids I was talking to were kids that placed at Fargo, won high school state as freshmen and sophomores, etc.

2. Personal opinion......I am afraid that without an amendment to give the choice to 14u to compete in 14u then we will ultimately lose more kids than we will gain. I know in our club, we have a lot of relatively inexperienced kids that fit that category. They wrestle kids club after high school because they get a chance to have some success and continue to work as they mature as a wrestler. The kids that are already Juniors or Seniors have already made up their minds. Most of them are tired of wrestling and want a break or they are focused on National level tournaments, freestyle and greco. What is the incentive for them to do the Kids series? In order to grow the sport we can't leave out the younger kids that are just learning or are not the elite.

Bottomline: I like the idea and will support it. I want to see us amend it so the 14u can have a choice. If that means waiting a year to get it fine tuned(although I think it is crazy we have to) then I am willing to do that.

I personally know both you and James and consider you both friends, I know that there was never any intent to exclude anyone. In fact, the two of you spend more time than most expanding opportunities for kids and helping kids. Please don't take this as a personal difference it is nothing but a philisophical difference that can be settled with a simple amendment.

Shawn Budke

I do not see this change as improvement. I am even more leery of something that "has to be done NOW".

Will, I am on board with about 90% of your ideas for change, this is not one of them.

Simple Question: How many of you that will be voting Wrestled? If you haven't, you have no idea what is best for the 14U wrestlers. I DID wrestle, as a freshman in High School. I only placed at one tournament my freshman year, Regionals, and went into High School State with a 10-11 record. I finished my high school season at 12-13. I was not mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to compete with Jr's and Sr's. This was at 126, imagine if I had been heavier.

At kids I won state that year, but not by beating up on 8th graders. I had several close matches, where both wrestlers were competitive. My next three years in High School I won State Championships.

I'm not telling this story to say "Look at Me". My point is, that if a 3x High School State Champ was not ready as a Freshman, how can we expect kids that will have a hard time qualifying as Sr's.

I'm just asking you to do what is best for the kids. I have been there and know what it is like...I will be voting NO.

Will,

I have the utmost respect for what you do for Kansas wrestlers and how you fight to make changes for the betterment of our sport. I dont believe I have ever disagreed with you on any issue before, but I do on this one.

If you would just answer two questions for me please. How many of the 8th graders from the four middle school duals teams would be competitive in this new high school division this year? And why would you want to make them try?

Folks,

I made a mistake....I should not have addressed my previous comments to just Will. It is not my intent to bring out certain posters with personalities and water down the debate.

At our district meeting a lot of what I said in my post was brought up at various times. We had a great discussion.

From my perspective, I think the reason for the push do vote this in now is to at least get some positive change. The idea is that this change may not be perfect but we can change it once we get it in. I think there is some worry about postponing for a year and then the bureuacracy and wheels of change could grind to a halt....my perspective and I understand it.

There has to be a way to make an amendment that doesn't modify the original intent.

Beeson,

Very well stated. My perspective comes from a very similar experience only in a different state.

Shawn Budke

Their current High Schools will start making them try on November 16th.

8th graders?

No, the FOUR MIDDLE SCHOOL TEAMS from last year. They are now freshmen.

There is always going to be a wrestler's last year be it their senior year in High School or their last year in Kids Wrestling or their last year in College or further down the road.

I do not see the advantage of dropping the 14 and under age division to add a 9-12 grade Men's division.

Which doesn't make it right. Wrestling is the only sport that does not have a Freshmen Team. Football, Basketball, Volleyball, etc. All other sports have a Freshman team, a JV, and a Varsity. When counting students for classifications they dont count the Freshmen. Why is that, because for the most part Freshmen will not be competing in Varsity Sports.

Wrestling has Junior Varsity. The participation levels don't allow for a freshman team. Even if they did, how would that help develop a wrestler more than JV competition and JV league tournament?

Is our main goal to develop wrestlers or to win a medal against middle schoolers?

And in fairness, they thought last year was their last year. The Seniors and Juniors who would be added have already come to grips with the fact that their last year of kids is over.

The 14U group are anticipating their year to be the oldest, so who is really being slighted if this passes?

Chad,

As I added to my last post, is our goal to develop wrestlers or to satisfy an anticipation to have one over on a MS kid?

Chief,

We will have to agree to disagree. I do not see it has having one over on a middle school kid. I see it as an age difference that has been since these kids were 6.

Yes, every kid anticipates being at the top of their age division. Just like Sr.'s anticipate being at the top of the age division.

Chad,

You have to admit to this:

The upper end of an age division changes its meaning when you now include a wrestler who has competed against 18 year olds all year long for 6 days a week in a HS room. All of the other kids age jumps involve kids club wrestlers who sometimes practice Tuesdays and Thursdays.

That age difference since they were 6 is NOT the same.

Do me a favor. Go to a High School wrestling room and tell me what you see. My guess is you will see Freshmen and Sophmores wrestling with Freshmen and Sophmores. Juniors and Seniors wrestling Juniors and Seniors. Occasionally a Senior will grab a Freshman or Sophmore, usually so he can slack off or rest. There will be a group of kids that are going out for the first year. These kids will work together most of the year working on basic moves and trying their luck every now and then against JV. Once the season kicks in, the Varsity wrestlers will be at Practice on Monday and Tuesday to wrestle. Wednesday is a slow day because of pulling weight. Thursday is Match Day. Friday and Saturday Tournament Days. All the while your beginners and Freshmen who didn't make the team or trip will be wrestling each other, 2-3 practices a week. Sounds like 8th and 9th Graders are on a pretty level playing field. Remember I have been there and know what it is like.

Why do we care about being "FAIR" to the 8th Graders but not the 9th Graders?

Chad,

You have to drop the "I have been there" argument. Many of us have been there. I disagree with you that your examples are the rule. Look at the rosters of over 200 schools in Kansas and see the 9th and 10th graders lining the varsity. For one thing far less teams wrestle on Thursdays anymore. When they do wrestle, there are usually more JV matches going on the mat next to them. I can assure you that JV wrestlers at the majority of high schools wrestle 4-6 days a week. It is not a "FAIR" issue. It is a looking forward, progressing and developing issue instead of pretending that we are doing our wrestlers a favor by encouraging them to take their skills to a lower level just to get that "feeling" of winning a kids state title as a high schooler.

I will bring up a point that nobody including you has addressed. Why are the top wrestling states in the nation on my side? Have they not heard your argument? Should they read your post and then say, "Wow, we are missing out on an extra kids medal!" "Why didn't we think of that?"

The answer is they have talked this through and decided that for the development of their wrestlers, they will push forward instead of backward.

Amazing....

I just looked at the first few teams in 4A that list their RETURNING varsity members.

Abilene - 9 out of 14 were underclassmen last year.
Andale - 6 out of 14 were underclassmen last year.

Your own Ark City team has EIGHT of 14 returning lettermen that were varsity underclassmen last year!

Beeson is pretty much right on. You always have a few freshman that are standouts and a coach will make them wrestle upper classmen in practice to get them more prepared for the highschool level, they are the exception, most freshmen are not ready for varsity competition even if they are varsity on their team.

His point was freshmen and sophomores not wrestling varsity. The evidence is weighed against him. In many cases they make up over half of a teams varsity roster.

Jeremy, can you answer the questions that I posed?

You guys are arguing about the wrong thing. No one, I repeat no one (I am faily sure), would disagree with the few changes Chad has endorsed/suggested. It appears you are only arguing because Richard has said 'no changes to the original proposal' and some want this done this year. Well argue about if Richard is right. I read the by-laws today, I do not find anything that prevents the the motion from being amended. I believe (and Jeff you seem to be more familiar with Roberts Rules, so correct me if I am wrong) that the motion can be amended if the maker of the motion (or club) accepts it. As one cannot foresee everything, and the changes noted keep the original intent as far as I see, then Richard should also be satisfied. What I find most upsetting is that an officer of this body, appointed by the board, refuses to answer legit questions posed by the membership and the board is silent. Richard has posted on other threads??? A high school division, with freshmen having the option to wrestle the high school divison or 14U, could end up making state alot of fun. Stop arguing amoung yourselfs and fix this.

And, wasn't the motion on coach's passes amended last year by the body??