but as far as I know I have only ever known of one official to be ejected from a tournament and I have never seen one fired for doing a bad job. The officials have the power but no accountability. They also get paid WAY better than any coach.

Dale, this is not the forum to discuss this as it is the High School forum and not Kids. I will be happy to continue it by PM.

Chad

I have to leave for practice now Chad. You have my number if you would like to discuss this further.

Some of you missed what I stated in my earlier post; I am in favor of an evaluation system for refs. I just think it needs to be approached in a more effective manner than complaining on this forum. Refs should be judged on their body of work, not on one or two matches.

Regarding language: I would say wrestlers are held accountable for their behavior or language by their coaches and parents. Coaches are accountable to the athletic director of their school. Refs should have this same accountability. It is a free market system, and I suppose they are judged by the people who hire them for a tournament. If you host a tournament, don’t hire the ones whose performance you judge to be inferior. I know this doesn’t help when it comes to regionals or state. I wonder what would happen if a kid defaulted a match unless the ref was replaced? I guess the kid would probably lose, but is it worth a try to stand up for what you think is right and to bring about change? I do not know; it is just a question.

As for F bombs and other cussin’ I am not a good one to ask. I really don’t object to much in the way of language. I do see them as just words. I do care a lot more about the message behind the words. I do not like name-calling even if it is “fish”. My earlier point was just that if we are going to denigrate someone, why not use a masculine term? Some of the absolute worst language I have heard is from parents chewing out their son after a lost match and they didn’t use any profanity.

You guys are making me nervous, I'm just gonna plead the 5th on cuss words............

Go eat at the Taco Shop, wait a few hours, and you'll know what an F Bomb is.......

Let it go? Please don't stop now. I am very entertained by most of you. TV sucks! Got no practice tonight. Football is almost over. And I'm in the doghouse for some reason (must be that monthly thing. .or all the cans in the garage maybe).

But please keep it to just a few sentences. Some of you could write a book (I'm not sure it would sell). I graduated (despite what Salyer says) from Iowa State and long posts make me coss-eyed.

Who the hell is June Bug? And why is Beeson always right? Love you all.

This is like walking into a bar fight with a smile on your face after its been going on for 15 minutes and everybody is all worked up.

These are separate points of interest to me, in no particular order.

1. I want to start at the beginning. I'm one of the officials (not THE offical) that worked the North matches. I heard about this situation at lunch shortly after it happened, it seemed pretty straight-forward to me at the time, Wrestler A called Wrestler B a very bad name and then shortly thereafter Wrestler A smacked him upside the head and that was pretty much the end of the match. Then I learned the wrestler that got tossed was 30-0 so I guessed there would be some questions about it. I'm a good guesser. And that's all I'm saying about that topic.

2. This forum is an "open mike." But Kansas registered officials and coaches are, by their agreement with the state association, governed by a Code of Ethics which prohibits public criticism of officials, etc. So if you are an official or coach and you use this forum as a sounding board to express your view on whether an official "blew" a call, you should reread the code, think about it, and make a choice. It's not "wrong" to criticize an official, and you can talk in private, but it is unethical (that's by "rule" not because I say so) to do so in public. It's bad for the sport.

3. Officials make mistakes. Watch the upcoming Super Bowl and you will see what I mean. And those guys are highly paid, professionally trained, experienced, have lots of help, and can use replay. Not one Kansas official I've ever met would deny it.

4. Any evaluation system would have its flaws. Right now, coaches seem to be the evaluators. They hold the cards. Not just because they vote on post-season assignments, but because they can tell the assignors who they want, or don't want, at their tournaments. I have, over the years, seen this happen. A coach once thought I should have awarded his wrestler near fall points and the next year I was not invited back to his tournament. So there are consequences even if the coach was wrong. No appeal for officials either. And there is a "self-governing" system. The assignors learn who can handle the tough matches and who come up short. It's like the army, you don't get promoted to sargeant unless you can handle being a private.

5. In my opinion, this area of the state is blessed with a strong core of well-respected, dedicated, and knowledgeable officials. I don't count myself in their ranks, but I have been in their company enough to know that their only desire is to make the right calls. And when they are together they are talking wrestling, officiating, and tough calls. And they are all good people. Except for Bob Ford.

6. It's not just coaches and wrestlers that put in time. On a typical Saturday an official will spend 8+ hours on the mat in constant action. My guess is that in a relatively few years an official would log more hours on a mat than any high school wrestler did during his four years in school. Everybody involved in wrestling puts in time. I don't know that, as a "money maker," the pay is worth it for either coaches or officials. JV officials didn't get a raise for about 10 years in a row.

7. Wrestling, as a high school sport, has some issues. I've seen the crowds dwindle to the point where I feel bad for the wrestlers. I'm not sure some even have a parent in the stands. Rarely see cheerleaders. It's a tough sport to be involved in as a kid. Lots of "easier" options. It's great if you are a four year letter winner, 34-0, and it's your life. That's the top 1% but there's a whole lot of kids that don't enjoy that success. At the same time, "sportsmanship" seems to be on the decline. Mixed martial arts, profanity, disrespect, and general "bad" attitude problems are increasing. Fans and parent incidents, including violence, are reported regularly. And as we see too often, officials are brow beaten for a "bad" call even when that call was correct. Example, last weekend a dad was filming near matside and when his kid got turned with a perfectly legal figure-four of the head he was screaming "that's illegal, that's a scissors, you've got to stop that!!"

8. It is becoming increasingly difficult to recruit and keep good coaches and officials. I have seen almost a 100% turnover in coaches in the past 15 years. It is becoming more difficult to find a sufficient number of qualified officials for regionals each year.

9. And lastly, I wish I'd taken a few more college courses so I could figure out why so many people seem to think it is OK to launch a nasty, personal, hateful, and ugly attack over a topic that is supposed to be "for sport." I was thinking about posting on this forum on the way home tonight from work while listening to "talk radio" and thought how similar some of the rabid caller's comments were to what often goes on here....

either way smells fishy to me! anyway beeson is the pres. he should come up with the motto. i think lou ann belong in the club. she sounds like a HA just like my wife.

The right to have an opinion is not accompanied by the right to be taken seriously.

This has become the most bazaar post I have ever read. Yet, like a train wreck, I can't take my eyes off it.

To recap:

A question was asked as to who is still undefeated
Several were mentioned
Perhaps the best pound for pound wrestler in the state lost by DQ
The wrestler may or may not have committed a flagrant misconduct penalty.
The dad and wrestler accepted full responsibility, regardless, and moved onto better things
The St. James haters started fanning the flames
The referee’s application of the rule was called into question
Salyer pulled out the rule book
It was determined that no one was using tobacco products
Discussion over the interpretation of the rule ensued
Videos were posted
People directly involved in the situation added addition information
St. James fell out of the top three at SMNW, some were happy about this
Tate Omli is undefeated
People feel that too many refs settle the match instead of the kids
Chief quoted Wes Fessler (who dat?)
“cs” is referenced – dwelsh is confused
The dad and wrestler again accepted full responsibility, regardless, and moved onto better things
The refs allow western Kansas kids to be rougher, still not as rough as Pennsylvania
St. James is called out
The dad and wrestler once again accepted full responsibility, regardless, and moved onto better things
People don’t like winning programs, especially private Catholic ones who must cheat
The “grassy knoll” video is posted
More debate ensues
Coakley opens the debate about the pussification of wrestling
Tripods are encouraged for all future meets
LancerM chimes in after a long hiatus
A serious argument for an officials rating system is made
Tar and feathers are put on hold
Liberal schools and too many female teachers have emasculated our youth
Mom chimes in and says this is not so
Coakley goes after mom, but both are smiling afterwards
Memories of the 60’s & 70’s are called to mind
A dictionary reference clears everything up
Or does it?
A direct link is provided for all visitors to become familiar with the “seven dirty words”
PETA is involved because of the use of the word “fish”
The F-bomb is dropped at a kids tournament (is this news?)
“fishification” is coined – deemed too smelly
A Taco Shop reference is made
Akin is in the dog house; June Bug’s identity is demanded
Defref earns his PhD after defending his dissertation
And by the way

There is one God, but many gods; at least that is what I tell my students, because I can

Great discussion, just keep away from the personal attacks and I commend those of you who post your names.

Please don't start a religious discussion, it will only end with about as much resolution as this one.

Ha! Good one.

But come on man, I was only confused on the 'cs' thing for about 5 minutes. I figured it all out on my own as the next post clearly shows. Give credit where credit is do! ;-)

Dean Welsh
Educator/Wrestling Fan/Former Coach

Uh, ............yeah, ............ that about sums it up. Actually, that was an excellent summation of the events on this post!

Nice job on the simple outline. Very funny!

We should end the thread on Bill's classic post!

I commend Mr. Moeder for the class he has shown in his posts.
Sometimes we need to know when its better just to keep our fingers off the keyboard.

it just got ugly AGAIN!

No doubt.

Mr. Dewitt:

Very funny...and I hope it makes us all laugh at ourselves at least a little....

Now that is a long post worth reading. Hats off!