Lot of talk recently concerning a Dual State Tournament. Here are some projections for a 2010 Kansas Dual State Tournament, if there was such an animal.

First, look at the current state top ten rankings and regional assignments for each class:

6A Rankings
Garden City
Derby
Goddard
Wichita Heights
Dodge City
Wichita NW
Junction City
Maize
Wichita Campus
Blue Valley West

Manhattan Regional
Derby
Junction City
Wichita Heights

OP SM Regional
Blue Valley W.

SMW Reg
No Ranked Tms

Wichita W. Reg
Dodge City
Garden City
Maize
Wichita Campus
Wichita NW

5A Rankings
Emporia
Andover Central
Lansing
Shawnee Heights
Pittsburg
Ark City
Salina South
Kapun MC
Topeka Seaman
St Thomas A.

Turner Reg
Lansing
St Thomas Acad

Newton Reg
Salina South

Shawn Heights Reg
Emporia
Shawnee Heights
Topeka Seaman

B. Carroll Reg
Andover Central
Ark City
Pittsburg
Kapun Mt. C.

4A rankings
Andale
Clay Center
Valley Center
Abilene
Scott Center
Colby
Columbus
Prairie View
St James Acad.
Louisburg

Chanute Reg
Columbus
Prairie View

Desoto Reg
St James Acad
Louisburg

Holton Reg
Abilene
Clay Center

Pratt Reg
Andale
Colby
Scott City
Valley Center

321A Rankings
Norton
Phillipsburg
Hoxie
Goodland
Minneapolis
Smith Center
Oakley
Wellsville
Plain view
Rossville

Hoisington Regional
No Ranked Tms

Marion Reg
No Ranked Tms

Norton Reg
Goodland
Hoxie
Norton
Oakley
Phillipsburg
Plainville
Smith Center

Rossville Reg
Minneapolis
Rossville
Wellsville

Projected Dual State tournaments could consist of two teams from each regional. Using the current KWCA rankings and KSHSAA regional assignments; the 6A Dual would consist of a max of 5 of the top 10 ranked teams; the 5A Dual, a max of 7 of 10 ranked teams; the 4A Dual a max of 8 top ranked 10 teams; and the 321A Dual a max of 4 of the top 10 ranked teams. With upsets in some regionals, the numbers of ranked teams going to a Dual State could decrease. Also, the listing of ranked team prior to regionals could/will change which will/could change the number of ranked teams going to a Dual State Tournament. What ever happens, a lot of good teams, and good wrestlers-including Individual State winners, would be staying home.

This is not an evaluation--just some what if’s.

Note: What sticks out is the disparite strengths/weakness between many regionals in all four classes

Sorry for the length---tried to do the rankinngs and regionals in 4 columns, a four column table and a four column spreadsheet. The Forum format would not hold the columns.

This is the original Dual State Proposal and 4 teams qualify from each regional, so you would have more of your "ranked" teams making it to the big dance.

DUAL STATE WRESTLING TOURNAMENT

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QUALIFYING PROCESS:
top 4 teams in each Regional tournament qualify for a 16-team Dual State for each class
in case two teams are tied for fourth place, the following criteria will be used: 1) most Regional top six placers; 2) most top four placers; 3) most top two placers; 4) most champions; 5) most wins in Regional tournament (not including byes); 6) highest win pct. in Regional tournament; 7) most wins head-to-head (between two teams in question); 8) coin toss

CALENDAR SCHEDULE:
one-day tournament, four mats for each class
the Regional and Individual State tournaments will be moved up one week, with the Dual State tournament held the weekend which is currently the Individual State weekend
teams still allowed 30 scheduling points

BRACKET ARRANGEMENT:
16 teams in bracket, single elimination, semi-final losers wrestle for third place
Round 1 @ 10:30 a.m. - four mats
Round 1 (cont.) @ 12:30 p.m. - four mats
Quarterfinals @ 2:30 p.m. - four mats
Semi-finals @ 4:30 p.m. - two mats
First/Third place @ 6:30 p.m. - two mats
Brackets will be set using the same formula used to set the Ind. State brackets (First A vs. Fourth B, Second C vs. Third D, etc.)

MISCELLANEOUS:
teams may weigh-in any 18 wrestlers and adjust their lineups throughout the day as per National Federation rules
top three teams receive trophies and medals for each team member

NOTES:
this event is fan and media "friendly" as it is easy to follow

this event gives a wrestler a chance to compete in a state-level event even if he may not have been able to qualify for Ind. State....more opportunities and recognition for kids!!

a great promotional event for our sport and its top teams

rewards the programs with balance strength throughout the lineup

20 of 48 states that sponsor wrestling have a Dual State tourney....Doug Moore (Concordia wrestling coach) contacted these states and all who responded had very positive comments about their Dual State events

only twice in the history of the Iowa Dual State has the same team won both the Individual State and Dual State team title

The plan is to run the event for two years in this format, then revisit it and make any necessary adjustments

Why not work off a "power points" ranking? They do this in other states...NJ I know for sure...and it takes into account our strength of schedule including school size, record, etc. One thing it does is has a minimum number of duals needed to qualify. I think that is important because it would entice teams to schedule more duals. I know there is some computer geek, er...I mean "genius", amongst us that could figure this out.

A couple of comments.

Having never seen a State Dual Tournament, and having read the Iowa Wrestling Manuals, I had the impression that a Dual 8 team class field would be divided into two 4 team duals, with the 2 winners then wrestling for the State Dual Team Class Championship.

Reading you schedule and tournament scheme, to me that looks like another Individual Tournament--with no backside except for 3rd and 4th place.

Maybe I need some edmacation.

I again ask the question: where in Kansas is a facility that will accomodate 12 mats--much less 16 mats. Would hate to see State dual in two facilities.

Can easily project a one day tournament with 8 schools per class. Not sure with 16 schools.

Is this not very, very, very subjective. Not sure we have a techno geek here in never-never land that could keep that up to date, much less put it together. Let's just seed the 4 or 5 top wrestlers in each bracket---opens and byes will ruin sohpisticated seeding schemes---and llet the kids wresle.


Added. Think you said in another post that you were from Jursey. About 10 years ago I was working in Jursey at State Tournament Time. Watched it on thre tele. Have said many time that it was the best HS wrestling I have ever seen. Biggest thinng I liked was the refs were throwing stall warning and calls left and right, against both the offensive and defensive wrestlers sometimes both at the same time. No riding parallel, and no resting. Every match was a scramble. Kansas just the opposite. Refs let wrestlers lay around like beached whales. The refs are much more active in Missouri.

First: I would love to see a Dual State Tournament. There is nothing that markets the sport better than the spirit and energy of a dual. Dual States would be off the charts.

Second: I am a techno geek. So if this ever develops some real momentum, and you think there is any real legitmate place for technology, I am in.

Third: Off the thread subject...I completely agree with your comment on stalling calls. I wrestled in Virginia in the late 70's and early 80's. I wrestled quite a bit in PA and NJ. Back East, "back in the day", I remember the officials instructing the "stalling" wrestler to "improve red", "improve green" and then would start a five count (looked like he was counting back points). If he got to five, there was immediately a warning or points. Once the wrestler, the coach, the fans witnessed the official giving the wrestler a stalling count, everyone knew what was happening. No surprises. You've got 5 seconds...MOVE. It made for more dynamic, entertaining wrestling.

Dual state would be awesome. They tailgate for duals in Jersey. Keep in mind tournament team strength and dual team strength in entirely two different things. You could not go off the rankings. Two kids or so on the front side at state (projected). will get a team ranked in the top ten. It takes 14 to get a dual team strong.

Still confused on the format for the Dual State Tournament.

At first reading of the Iowa Dual manual got the impression that the State Tournament was also in a dual format. Just re-read the manual and format at State level could be bracketed weight class tournament. But, why do that when you have already had a BRACKETED Individual tournament? Seems like a convoluted and costly process to get wrestlers and teams, who may not have done well in the Individual Tournament, some bragging rights (let Johnny feel good).

Question. If Iowa, the center of the universe for HS wrestling, only qualifies eight teams to the Dual State Tournament--one team from each dual regional--why does the Kansas plan qualify 16 teams to the Dual tournament (4 from each regional)?

In Wisconsin:

They have regional, sectional, state.

They keep team score at regionals because your WHOLE team is there. At sectionals and state they do NOT keep team scores because your whole team is no longer intact.

The teams that win the regionals (there are 8 in each of the three classifications) attend a dual state the weekend after individual state. It is a eight team bracket to determine the best TEAM in the state. One for each of their three classifications. It is very popular.

wisconsin

sounds like the easiest/ best solution yet.

so in ks the regional champs and runner-ups (each regioanl/ each class) would compete in the dual championships. sounds simple enough.

OR we could take the regional champs from all regionals/ all class (16teams)- but then we would need to change the 5match/ 1day limit or the tournament would be a 2 day tournament.

changing TWO rules, uh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Dual State in Iowa

3A Large Class Top 64 enrolled 9-11 = 6A Kansas

The top two teams in each district qualify for Dual state. There are 8 district sites in Iowa. Translate to Kansas 6A, the top 4 in each regional would qualify. The top regional team hosts a dual against a 2nd place team (16 teams). That winner moves on to the main tournament at the UNI Dome (8 teams). The Dual tournament at the Dome is a single elimination. Loser in the semi-finals wrestle for 3rd.

Each team can bring 24 members, coaches, wrestlers and managers.

Only 6 cheerleaders and a cheer coach will be permitted.

There have been more than two teams to win both. Ballard-Huxley, Iowa City West, Gilbertville Don Bosco, West Des Moines Dowling Catholic ‘88, ‘90, and ’91.

I still read that Iowa sends 8 tems per class (1A, 2A, 3A) to the Stae Dual tournament.

1A and 2A: 16 sections each advance 2 teams (winner and runner up) to 8 regionals. Each regional a is double dual with four teams. The two winners then wrestle for first place. The winner, and only the winner, advances to State. 8 regionals X one winner equals 8 teams to State.

3A: 64 schools. No sectionals in 3A. 8 teams in 8 Districts. Each district advances 2 teams (16 teams) to 8 regionals. Each regional is a single dual with only 2 teams. The winner of each regional advances to the State Dual Tournament.

3 classes, each with only 8 teams. 24 teams to State. 3 State team champions

I still do not under stand if the State Dual is a weight bracketed tournament with 8 teams, or if State continues to be a dual format, with the 2 winning teams wrestling for the State Championship

Why would you have a weight bracket dual tournament when you have already had a state individual tournament. To me, the dual state tournaments seems to possibly be a tournament of losers--wrestlers and teams who could not get to the individual state tournament.

As for losers, probably not an issue in Kansas in that each class is dominated year after year by by mostly the same teams. In 6A you have Goddard, Derby, Maize, Garden City, Dodge, and a few others. In 5A you have Emporia, Andover Central, Ark City, Kapun M.C., Carrol, et. 4A is Clay Center, Abilene, Columbus, etc. Don't know so will not list 321A reams. So what do you get adding a dual formated tournament in Kansas, the same winning teams as in the Individual State Tournament.

i think most people here would agree that the fan base would be better at dual state. more exicitement, more opportunities to compete. i'm not sure that the same teams would always win the way that you state. some teams are great tournament teams, have 3 or 4 wrestlers who will reach the finals, but don't field a great solid team.

if the same teams always win, then why compete at all? i mean here we go again with the negative statements.

I don't agree, I believe the attendance would be greater for a Grand State.

My last comment on this subject.

Its not about the teams. In wrestling it's about the individual wrestlers--mano e mano; one on one, etc. Or, at least it should be.

And I concede, what I have just said may be rationale for both an individual and a dual state tournaments. Someone here said that team scores are no longer kept at the Wisconsin Indiv. Tournament, which were sacrificed so they could rationalize adding the State dual. Personally, I think our KS Individual remains the best tournament---wrestlers win matches, and teams accumulate points. At the end you have both individual and team champions. Have not seen a decrease in Kansas fan support. Does the Iowa Dual has as many fans attendees their Indiv State. If so, why do they take it to a smaller facility in Cedar Rapids.

I agree with Sportsfan02 about a GRAND STATE. Now that will get the fans cranking!

SO DO I

some interesting info, maybe/maybe not, but food for thought.

in the past 10 years:

10 different teams have been in TOP 3 in 6a

14 different teams have been in TOP 3 in 5a
(excluding Goddard and Emporia as they have been 6a also)
8 different teams have been in TOP 3 in 4a

11 different teams have been in TOP 3 in 321a

Just remember, after it's all said and done...more is said than done.

Contrarian,

I disagree with you about wrestling being an individual sport. Duals competitions are very exciting and I think help grow the sport more than individual competitions. Here are my reasons for a dual state.....(most of this I stated on an earlier thread)

1. Kids love it. To find hard evidence, look no farther than the middle school duals. That event has grown to one of the premier events in our state. The kids love to participate in that because of the comraderie and they identify with wrestling for their state. They identify with this more than when they are wrestling as individuals representing KS.

2. It helps the coaches teach important life lessons to the kids. Lessons such as teamwork, dedication, work ethic, etc. Not that individual (read open) tournaments don't do this but I don't think it does it as well.

3. Increase in fan participation and school spirit. Wrestling is a hard sport to understand and appreciate to the casual fan. The dual format offers the casual fan an easier and quicker way to get involved and appreciate the sport. It is much easier to understand the team score in a dual than it is to understand how it is done in a regular tournament. I think you would get a lot more people supporting the high school team at the dual meets and a state dual than you would at a regular tournament. The time commitment for the casual fan is limited and they can get excited and into the matches a lot easier in a dual format than in a regular tournament format.

4. The only people that really get interested in a Grand State are the people already committed to wrestling.... Hard core wrestling enthusiasts.

This is my perspective and position. I know not all agree and that is ok.

I would like to meet you sometime....since we live in the same home town. Heck, you may be someone I already know and respect but you never put your name on here.

Shawn Budke

My absolutely last comment.

My old mother, the smartest woman I have know, used to say "anticipation is sometimes greater than realization"

Probably true in this case. Lots of talk--whioch is fun--but probably to no end. It is what it is!