Instead of looking at classes when it comes to Kansas wrestling, I like to look at location. In my expierence I've noticed that it seems out east everyone is bent out of shape and crazy about rankings, last names, and what happened last year. However, out west no one really cares about any of those things. "Line em' up on the red and green tape and prove it" is the general attitdue west. Im going to throw this statement out there...Its tougher to string 4 wins together at 321A State than 5a or 6a. State Championships are not won JUST in the finals when 2 big names with abunch of media and hype behind them meet up. It seems that 5 and 6a top 3 are some of the best in Kansas, while the bottom 3 are not nearly as good.

That is a load of BULL BUTTER!!!! Tell that to all the kids that placed 4,5,6 at state last year.

a

Post your name if you're going to make a dumbass comment like that. You're an idiot and a coward.

At Goodland, we wrestle the St. Francis tournament, colbly Dual tournament, Liberal tournament, Hays tournament , Oberlin tournament, plus our own dual tournament, we have wrestled top Colorado programs(Burlington, Cherokee Trails) and some of the best Kansas programs(Colby, Norton, Oakley, Hoxie, Garden City), and even one of the best Nebraska programs(Kearney HS). We do not shy away from anyone, we will wrestle our hearts every time we step on the mat. There have been many great wrestlers come out of Western Kansas and there will continue to be some great kids in this part of the state. That is why Valley Center comes out here to wrestle.

Ooooh, you have really taken me to task with your challenge Cokeley. I can get started on that with no effort at all Mr. Smarty Guy.

You were obviously more concerned in finding something to contradict me on then understanding what I was saying and why.
Your little challenge of one comment that I made should not have been the focus but it became your focus and thanks for the critical analysis.

My point, once again to you AND ANYONE ELSE, was that uneducated people make inaccurate statements about the greater number of losing records in 5A and 6A like, "5A and 6A are weaker because they have more losing records at state" and "You can see from the losing records that it is harder to get to state in 3A and 4A". Both comments are offensive but that is not my problem. My problem is they are totally inaccurate and anybody who makes those comments is uneducated in this area. We can now add "5A and 6A should be combined because of the number of losing records at state" to our list of ridiculous comments made about losing records in 5A and 6A. I will comment on that later as combining 5A and 6A might not be such a bad idea but certainly not for the reasons stated.

Aside from the fact that maybe those kids had harder competition which we cannot verify perhaps, perhaps we could, the real issue, which I already stated more than once, is the regional alignment. Whether it is right or wrong is not an issue for me to pass judgement on but the regional alignment or should I say disalignment is the cause of the effect (number of losing records in 5A and 6A) not the weakness or strength of a particular class and/or difficulty of state qualifification in a particular class or even size of a class.

Hopefully we are on the same page now and we can move forward.
But I know you are in suspense now and I probably should at least give you something. And like I said with little effort.

Tyler Selves of Goddard at 135 and 4 state qualifiers he either beat or placed ahead of with a common opponent are presented.
Lets start with Pollum of yes, St James Academy, lost by fall to Selves at Basehor as did Hansen of Baldwin by fall. Pollum was 3rd and Hansen was 1st at regionals. Pike of Basehor a regional runnerup and Hurla of Rossville a regional champion both lost to Hansen who Selves beat. Weaver of Chapman beat Hansen 5-1 while Selves pinned him. With some more time I could come up with plenty more examples. So how do you think Selves feels when he hears that it is easier to get to state in 5A and 6A than 4A and 3A? It probably will be tough to swallow. It probably won't add up. Bottom line is it won't wash at all. He would have obviously qualified in more than one of their regionals, if not all. But he was in the toughest 6A regional with 6 of the top 10 teams in the state. That's the problem.

You see Cokeley, I am not just some parent of a wrestler with an opinion. I am a head coach by profession, 20 years total more than 10 in Kansas. When I was the coach at Goddard, when they were in 5A, we regularly attended what would amount to the Bishop Carroll regional of this year, the toughest for sure and according to the rankings. Every year we had good kids that did not qualify. They then got to go to state and watch someone in 4A, as they were all at the Coliseum then, wrestle and many times even earn a medal. When I coached at Southeast which was and is in 6A, we attended what amounted to the Manhattan regional, the other tough 6A regional. Same thing. I have years of experience and data to draw on and not just biased opinions.

At my sons weight this year, there are several kids that he has beat or placed ahead of this year that placed higher than he did at their respective 4A/3A regionals so how was his regional easier? How was it easier for him to get to state? Rashad Newhouse of Wichita South with a 19-9 record is not going to state because he lost to my son and he is definitly good enough and would have beaten some of those kids as well and maybe even did. I really don't want to mention anymore 4A/3A kids but I will if you must. But I could almost guarantee Rashad could have placed at Basehor. Some 4A kids that did not are going to state. If I were Rashad, I would be pissed that I was in 6A and would wish I was in one of those 4A/3A regionals that are "harder to get thru to get to state" because its tougher or has more teams.

But to that effect, once again its not the quantity that makes a bracket tough, it is the quality. So a 16 man bracket is not necessarily tougher than an 8 man bracket or even a 4 man bracket that affords a GO TO STATE FREE CARD. As I went through the 135 pound 4A/3A regional brackets, I couldn't help but notice that none of them had 16. In 3A they were 10, 13, 15 and 13. In 4A they were 12, 15, 12 and 11 and we are talking about 135 not 103 or 275. So the whole massive 4A/3A bracket thing is way over rated. But that's not the point anyway as once again, its not the quantity that counts, its the quality.

If the whole 5A/6A losing records thing really bothers you, OR ANYONE ELSE, then you should try to convince the state to do a better job aligning the regionals, not just by geography but by quality. But the answer is definitely not to say inaccurate things about 5A and 6A to make yourself feel superior because you went to state in 4A/3A.

A side note is I know that some 3A regionals like Norton and 4A regionals like Pratt are tougher than other class regionals as well. I also know that you could probably start some research now showing how some kid in 4A/3A didn't qualify and beat some kid from 5A/6A. And that would probably just validate what I originally said which was, "aside from had a bad day, it's the quality of the regional and weight that determines the qualifiers and not the size of the class or the bracket or perceived toughness of a class".

But its definitely not accurate to say "5A/6A has more losing records so its easier to get to state than 3A/4A". Tell that to Tyler Selves. It will be a tough sell.

Have only seen one area's regionals---KC, KS plus STA and Lansing. Has to be the easiest region to get to State. As I posted somewhere, had 36 open round byes and yes there was at least one if not more wrestlers who got a free pass to State (i.e., no wins at region).

Heres's an idea. This regional fields abouta 3 1/2 to 4 team field with eight schools. Have KSHSAA let the 3 KC, KS high schools (Harmom, Wyandotte, Washington) Co-Op in wrestling, but do not add their student enrollment figures together and force them into 6A. The four schools could field one pretty good Co-OP team. By Co-Oping these schools you would then have only 29 schools/teams in 5A wrestling. Then the regionals could be slightly changed geographically with 3 regions with 7 teams and one region with 8 teams. Same number of kids wrestling, but probably better competition in all brackets!! Lets at least be pragmatic rather than dogmatic (the man has a way with words).

Still can not find the spell checker!!!

X,

Let me get this straight right now. I am not about to stand up for 321A as most do NOT wrestle 5A or 6A schools with any success. It is basically an isolated group for the most part (one glaring exception is Norton, trying to save Billy Johnson some blood pressure medicine :)) There are NO regional brackets in 4A or 321A with 5 or less competitors in them. If you have 5 or less you don't even have to win a match to make it to state! That is a complete joke!!!! How much easier does it get? I am speaking from an OVERALL view. It is easier to qualify for 5A or 6A state. You only have to win 3 matches to be a champ instead of four, if you lose the first round you only have to win 2 instead of 4 to make it out the back if you lose in the first round. I don't care how educated you think you are you cannot argue that. If you don't have to win it is way easier than having win a match. I will not disagree with you that the regionals are imbalanced and I wouldn't mind seeing 16 man brackets at 5A and 6A regional but only 8 should make it to state then. 25% of the wrestlers just like 4A and 321A. You might find a few needles in the haystack but I believe there is mostly parity after the top two in the regionals. The BC 5A regional is not what it was when you were coaching.

By the way Mr. X Smarty Pants, I told you there were not 16 schools assigned to any of the 4A regionals s 15 wrestlers is a full bracket. Only 60 or the 64 4A schools have wrestling. I wish I could review the 5A and 6A regional brackets so I could tell you how many byes there were. I am pretty sure that there was a greater percentage of participants at both 4A and 321A.



SHOW ME A WRESTLER WITH A LESS THAN .500 RECORD WHO WOULD HAVE QUALIFIED FOR STATE IN 4A.

Will,

I'll throw a wrench into your arguement. I found a few .500 or less records that made it to state in 4A this year:

112 Derek McGovern of Towanda-Circle (17- 18) 48.57%
130 Tyler Hand of Tonganoxie (11- 15) 42.31%
152 Charlie Briggs of Spring Hill (14- 23) 37.84%
171 Derek Feist of St. James Academy (11- 13) 45.83%

In 321A the Marion Regional only had 5 wrestlers in the 103 bracket.

Co-opting is not the answer to anything IMO. Once that becomes acceptable to those in charge you would eventually have about two dozen programs total in the state. We should never accept less than that other winter sport!

I meant from 5A and 6A that would have qualified in 4A. There might be some but I want X to find them. I must have overlooked Marion. I didnt look very hard at the 321A.

Watched Derek Feist wrestle - he is FAR better than his record would indicate. SJA wrestles many tough schools so that Ryne has some competition (just kidding Will - seems to be poke Cokely day so I'm joining in!)

Again, SJA's schedule seems more challenging compared to many other schools, thus Mr. Feist perhaps had more quality losses, whatever.

If a kid goes to state with a losing record under these circumstances it's easier to understand. If they go because the bracket is empty, it does seem less fair to the kids that fought through a full bracket (or close to it) to win the honor. I've had a wrestler tell me that sometimes 3rd is better than 2nd because you have to win to get 3rd. If you don't even have to win - well, whatever. Kid still put in a season on the mat - not their fault the system is the way it is.

X,

There are several examples that I can think of 321A or 4A wrestlers who performed well against 5A or 6A wrestlers. In 2006, Norton had a 171 who took 2nd at the Newton tournament. His name escapes me. But he had to go through several of top people in the state to make the finals. In doing so he lost to a wrestler from Perry, Oklahoma. Then at regionals he was the number 1 seed and failed to qualify. I believe this same wrestler failed to qualify the very next year under similar circumstances. Based off of his Newton results you'd expect him to be a state placer in any classification. However, he failed to even make it out of regionals because of the "quality" and "quantity" that it possessed. Coach Johnson could fill in the blanks for me.

At 152, Dalton Rodd of Campus qualified with an 10-11 record. He qualified out of one of your "quality" regionals in Wichita Northwest. Rodd failed to win a match at the Hays Prairie Classic. The runner-up of this bracket Lorenzo Delgado of Goodland didn't even make it to state due to the "quality" and "quantity" of his 321A regional. Jordan Eggers of Dodge City and Kyler Meyers of Hays both made it to state while being out performed by Delgado at the Prairie Classic.

At 135, one of the weights you've done extensive research on, Cope Wickham of Hays qualified to state with a 14-19 record. He failed to place at the Hays Prairie Classic. He lost head to head against Nash Karst of Russell who was later beaten by Austin Lopez of Ellis. Neither of the wrestlers made it to state. Travis Steenson of McPherson went 5-21 this year and made it to state. He was beaten by Tyler Worta of Ellsworth who also failed to qualify to state.

These are just results I observed while looking at one tournament. I'm sure I can find a lot more also but there is no point in me beating a dead horse. All the classes have kids who would not make it to state in various regionals, but they did qualify in the one they are in. The wrestlers deal with the cards they are dealt and just try to "take care of business". If you want the regional disparities to be fixed in each of the classifications I'd suggest contacting Rick Bowden of KSHSAA and stop making accusations about how one class is better than others because of quality. Really it's pretty equal and changes from year to year.

Last year the Large Class Schools dismantled the Small Class Schools at the Senior Classic. However, the overall record since the switch to Large/Small format is 3-2 Large Class. Not a run away by any means. Just sit back and enjoy this last week of high school wrestling.

The wrestlers name was David Stanley from Norton. And I believe it was his Senior Year.

Well you can tell Tyler Selves, that Hurla of Rossville, who Selves finished ahead of at Basehor, beat Webb of Wichita South, who qualified ahead of Selves. Hurla beat Webb 12-10 at the Council Grove Duals. Diener of Lyons also pinned Webb at the Council Grove Duals and failed to qualify to state. Diener was the numer 1 seed in his regional as well.

Bowely of Buhler beat Terrell of Wichita Northwest at the Maize Tournament and he failed to qualify to state. While Terrell qualified over Tyler Selves. Gibson of ACCHS placed ahead of Terrell at the Junction City Tournament even though Selves finished ahead of Gibson at Basehor.

Just thought I'd throw a little more salt into the wound.

poke cokeley day? i would prefer to hang him from the ceiling and hit him like a pinata. then again he knows i'm just kidding, and honestly he's alot more fun when he's angry. i usually try to get him fired up about one thing or another, he's turns this strange shade of red.

i will challenge all of you further. don't find just one, find FOUR. find four placers in each class, each weight, and convince them to meet at a neutral sight, and battle. when the dust clears have one champ/ all class. you could call him something catchy like GRAND STATE CHAMPION.

oh who am i kidding, it's funner to argue it here on the forums, than to watch it.

I thought his last name was Stanley. So was he a senior in 2006 then? I know he didn't qualify after tearing it up a Newton, which really surprised me I just couldn't recall what year he was in school.

Yes now that I think more about it it was his senior year.

Ok the toughest class is impossible to determine. Everybody can come up with something that makes their class tougher than another. but the All-Class rankings have 8 4a kids as number 1, 3 6a and 3 5a. but no 321a. even though 321a Has MANY very tough wrestlers. so to me all the classes have strengths and weaknesses but impossible to determine which is best.

why don't we just look at the results of the big vs small school competition from the last couple years, big schools pretty much dominated the little schools