riding time wouldn't stop the top man from stalling, but it would sure make someone work up from the bottom. wrestlers learn at a very young age that if you are ahead, take bottom, don't get turned, you win. with riding time that strategy is out the window. stalling on top and neutral is a little easier for refs to decide. if you back-up, fail to circle, or attempt a takedown, stalling. if you stay on the hips, for more than 5 secs, and don't work for a fall, stalling. from bottom you can make it look good.

i agree with sportsfan here, there are 4 styles in america, folkstyle, collegiate, freestyle, and greco. maybe we should push for 3... collegiate,freestyle, and greco. i think getting too close to fs/gr could be detrimental. i think collegiate style would certainly cover some of the action,and excitement aspect.

Yes the "push out" rule has it's problems but but it does cause wrestlers to circle and fear the edge of the mat not use it to their advantage. It also help teach wrestlers mat position and body control when near the edge of the mat.

Badbo - I agree as well. Freestyle is more fast paced and exciting then folkstyle.

Sportfan02 - Even if it is a Greco/Freestyle rule and it gets more action during a folkstyle match isn't that what we are after?

The solution is really simple. Dig a ten foot deep trench around the wrestling mat. Fill it with 6 inches of glass. If you are pushed into the trench, you have 2 minutes to return to the mat or forfeit. I guarantee kids will try to stay in the center of the mat.

I don't know the whole rule on the push out, but say a Headup shoots in the middle of the mat and Steele sprawls immediately but Headup keeps driving like he is suppose to do till they go out of bounds. Does he get a point for a force out?

Also, riding time would work well as long as stalling was called. Otherwise a kid could get a tight waist and an ankle and just sit there hand fighting the whole time while sitting on the hips.

First of all to you badbo: from the early days of kid’s wrestling, to his first national title, and every match I have seen since then, I have always loved the intensity that your boy shows on the mat. I would watch that boy thumb wrestle!

Second: as we contrast styles, I will comment that although I enjoy both FS and Greco, I like better the mat wrestling of the collegiate style. Exposure points are so much easier in FS and Greco. For me as a spectator, I get bored watching the bottom wrestler flatten out and the top wrestler attempt to lock up something and roll. Personally, I just don't enjoy that as much. So I would hesitate to vote for rule changes that too dramatically made the collegiate style look like FS and Greco. Just one spectator's opinion.

To the point on stalling: I believe that stalling in Kansas wrestling is getting out of hand. Officials simply must call it quicker. I wrestled high school in Virginia during the late 70s and 80s. When the referee instructed the wrestler to "improve", the referee started waving a 5 count. If he got to 5, it was "stalling!" Everyone in the gym knew what was going on. That kind of visibility usually produced the desired result.

But stalling can be tough to call. I saw a match at one of the lower weights where the top wrestler was so much stronger than the bottom wrestler, that he could simply post him flat and wait for the bottom wrestler's outside arm to post so he could rip a cross face and turn him. Who is stalling? Top guy can hold him down and protest that the bottom guy is not doing anything. Bottom guy can protest "but I can't move".

Maybe there could be a marriage of styles where the bottom wrestler can stall, even flatten-out if desired. The top man can stall, even post his opponent to his belly and hold him there if desired. The official would have to judge that there is no action that warrants staying on the mat and put the wrestlers on their feet again with no point given. This would allow the bottom man to wrestle if he wants to without the increased exposure threats of FS and Greco but would also allow either wrestler to stall out to standing if there is no action.

This, of course, does nothing for stalling on your feet. The officials just have to call it.

It is not even logical when a kid has 3 or 4 takedowns in a match and gets dinged for stalling in the third right after a shot. Sometimes if you have been warned for stalling you can't even sprawl.
There was as match this weekend where a kid cut the guy twice in the third and took him down twice to tie it with 38 seconds left. He cut him again to go down one just because of a stalling warning. Fearing the ref would decide the match in 38 seconds rather than go to OT.

The blatant stalling is on the feet when they are pushing but have blocks up on the shoulders or the tie. Call that one right off the bat and the parallel on the hips 5 to seven seconds.

To each their own but you have to agree, more people have my taste in wrestling than yours.

Another option to the push out ideas is to call scoring out of bounds like they currently do in college....

You can basically score from your feet by only having a toe in bounds.

This has really opened up the shooting and cut down on kids "playing the edge of the mat" from what I have seen. The college wrestlers will blast guys all the way across the mat and as long as they have 1 toe in when they get the takedown....they score.

Now I know there is some technical wording in the rule book about this but this is from an observation perspective.

Heck, I can't even take credit for the idea.....I got it from Ryne Cokeley (by the way he has wrestled a lot of freestyle and a couple of open college tournaments this year). We were having this discussion and he said he liked the College rule better than the push out. Initially I didn't agree with him and so I started watching closer during the college matches. I now agree with him based on what I have seen.

I also like the idea of riding time (never thought I would say that). I hated it when I wrestled in college but in today's collegeiate wrestling I think it brings a different twist and more strategy to matches.

Just my 2 cents.

Shawn Budke

Was this the Chanute regional? If it is the match that I saw, that guy was a poor official period and knowing when someone was stalling wasn't his only failing.

I don't think you will ever see that at the high school level because of some of the gyms we have to wrestle in. In some, you would be driving your opponent into an unpadded wall.

Sportsfan - No one said I liked GR/FS over folkstyle. I prefer Folkstyle. You must demonstrate more control on the mat and have the option of mat wrestling or letting him up and returning to your feet. I was suggesting a way to take some of the "judgement" out of the stalling call and maybe even add some more action in Folkstyle. IMO More action = Better wrestling

I think the best way to do that is as some others have suggested, better education of our officials and maybe even coaches and fans. I have no problem with stalling being called often from all positions as long as it's called equally across the board and relatively the same from one official to another. I know this wouldn't harm any of the programs I am close to because I know those programs have coaches who demand an aggressive style of wrestling.
To me, watching FS is like watching paint dry and I would hate to bring that to Folkstyle. I think we can fix whatever problems we have by making stalling a point of emphasis and with clinics for officials demonstrating what is and what is not stalling.

I agree but if coaches can not "question a judgement" call and there is no grading or rating systems for officials then they can do what they think is "right".

I did see an official this past weekend tell a wrestler "action" then started counting, like for near fall, the stalling wrestler got the point very quickly. If all refs used something like that it would work regardless of postition

I think the official making a five count would solve most problems but they need a standard by which to call the warning. Consistancy is key. Make the call the same way every time. Should be no such thing as a judement call. You should be able to explain why you did what you did.

sorry chad i missed that suggestion coming through the grievance committee in-box. i forwarded the memo to facility maintenance, and they have begun digging. had to import the glass, seems most everything is plastic now. if the HA board of directors would approve we could fill with rusty nails instead. let me know, and i'll get on it.

my stance on the push out rule is simple. i come to watch wrestling, not belly rubbin'.

more matches would begin to look like hwt matches, two guys locked up trying to drive block each other. i go to football games to see that.

riding time
consistent- 5 counts
both simple to implement, both simple for officials.

rusty nails/ glass/ 6 foot deep trenches
all simple for kids/ fans to understand

either way more action/ more excitement.

The pushout point is only given from the feet. If you are on the mat in FS/Greco, the pushout is not awarded I believe.

Doug you are correct. Many of the people who claim they don't like FS/GR don't even know the rules, so that might indicate their comparision has a little less validity. Everyone will always have their favorite style. My son likes actually likes Folkstyle better, but says wrestling freestyle has made him a much better folkstyle wrestler. All I am saying is we should support ALL wrestling instead of weakening it by separating it out. We are stronger as a whole than we are in pieces.

JMO

If they would go to the Duals one time, they'd be hooked...........