I think some of the "standard" guidelines are good rules to follow. One in particular that reads something like "If wrestler has EVER placed in an Open tournament" Then they may not enter a novice tournament. Im really not concerned if every since then they are getting beat out every weekend, if they placed at an open they are no longer a novice. Often times when I am at novice tournaments I see 1st year kids who totally walk through the tourny because they are so much better.

Even then, "ever placing" in an Open is broadbrushing an issue that has exceptions. Plenty of kids back into placing at Opens with scratches, injuries etc. Also, getting beat out every weekend and not scoring a point at the Opens are two different things.

Yes and making exceptions for every situation is not going to help the situation at hand. Because if one person gets an exception then someone else will find a loophole, and then we are right back at kids who are not quite good enough to consistantly place at opens or never score a point, being in Novice tournaments and walking all over the competition there.

I agree with that Chief.

All to often there are only one or two athletes to a class at open tourneys. So athletes are bound to place and not have had to wrestle very many matches. You could lose your novice status the very first tourney you went to in that scenario. I thought, I read where you had to place in an open tourney with 5 or more in the bracket.

This is especially true for the heavy weights, where finding athletes of comparable weights to wrestle is difficult. I find having to wrestle up an age group just to get matches in, is quite unfair to the kids. It essentially shuts out those kids from wrestling other kids of comparable age & experience.

Jr. Hawk Dad,

I don't know how it is with your club, but most clubs the parents sign the kids up for tournaments not the coaches.

Quote:Should the kid be to blame I think not we should blame the coaches that sign the kids up for a novice when they know better. Call it what you want but I call it CHERRY PICKING

Some of it parents are not aware of all the "guide lines" that are followed by a rule of thumb, and I'm sure some of it lies on the fact parents want the bragging rights of their child placing high in a tournament.

What normanly happens to the kids that can compete in the opens that wrestle novice is when it comes time for subs and dist., they lose out because they've spent most of their time wrestling novice wrestlers.

As for our sign ups it is up to the parent to sign up the wrestler but it is up to the coach to rate the wrestler before he sends in the sheet. When the coach looks at the sign up sheet they know if thier wrestler is a novice or not. So the resposibility still stays with the coach. Parents may not know the difference but the caoch sure does. And if the parent has been around for 2 years they should know thier kid is not a novice. I did not want stirr up anything I just wanted to know if someone thought my 6& under 2nd year wrestler should be considered a novice or open wrestler.

Well until last year I thought that anyone who was a first or second year wrestler qualified as novice. But I learned last year that if you've placed in so many opens that first year or not you weren't considered novice anymore. But as it's been stated before on this topic,some wrestlers walk into placing by being in 4 man or less round robins. So what do you do?

My wrestler just turned 6 last week and has done well at novice and open tournaments, but has yet to win either one. The only reason I entered him in open was I did not want to spend the whole weekend in a hot gym. We see the same kids at open and novice tournaments. I do know that I will not enter him in a novice next year or after he wins a novice or open, but until then I think he deserves the mat time at both.

I think that is a great idea. You get the best of both worlds, so to speak. That's what I did with my son.

I agree with the idea of allowing a coach decide whats novice.
I have a 12 year old who wrestled 2 years ago for the first time. He had 3 tournaments that year.
Now he's trying it again and loving it.
The bad part. He has no competion. He's 12 and under and at 5'6" he weighs 195 lbs. (thanks to the sport, he's lost 16 pounds)
He uses brawn instead of skill to win so I'm putting him in an open at Mill Valley this weekend hoping to get him some experiance. But it looks like by the sign ups, he's going to win another medal without going against a skilled wrestler. Being he's not really learning anything. Will i have to put him into open's all next year if he wins two opens this year?
Argh! What to do....

Hey ProudMom, i know your boy....maybe he'd like to come kick around "Ratboy" one night at the house. I know he could learn from him. Or send the hubby over. HELP!

Topfuel_Racer if you want more matches and not just another medal. It looks like there is few kids at 14 and under. I don't know the rules on moving up an age group but I know some have done that in the past.

Hey Topfuel! Jake would probably love to come over and wrestle around with "Ratboy" - his practice partner last year was a very good wrestler that was 60lbs heavier than him, so Ratboy wouldn't be too far off...now, getting the hubby there is a different story - actually getting him somewhere other than work and Jake's practices/matches is sometimes a trick!

Thanks Forvac! Thats an avenue i didn't think about.

I agree (I think) with Forvac.

One avenue (and this might be essentially the same thing as Forvac and perhaps others have already mentioned) would be if a wrestler that is clearly not a novice, but is under the two-year limit, etc... sign him up for a weight-class that is either one or two steps higher than he is.

One of the critical situations (IMHO) is that we all want our kids to have the love for this great sport that we all do, and if the kids are getting drilled consistently by kids that are not really novice that are enrolled and wrestle in novice tourney's, they might get a bit dis-heartened by the failure. Nobody wants this.

At the same time, I personally know that there are many parents that simply do not actually know the "guidelines" for novice status/tournaments. Also, I am not sure to what extent all the coaches for all the clubs convey this information either. There are though, unfortunately, parents that just don't care and want their kid(s) to get the mat time and all other kids be-damned.

This is an excellent topic on this great forum btw. Hopefully it will be a catalyst for some more explicit rules in this area.

I am currently in my 12th year as a coach in USAW and this has been a problem since the first time I attended a novice tourney. The 2 year rule seems to make sense, however I have coached 1st and 2nd year kids that have become state placers. I also had the pleasure of coaching a young man who in 7 years of wrestling won a grand total of 3 matches, now explain the 2 year rule and how it makes sense for that young man. A few years ago we ran into situations in back to back years at the same novice tourney, in which very skilled wrestlers demolished and even injured a couple of "green kids". This resulted in at least two young men not wanting to continue wrestling. At the time I proposed only allowing certain takedowns, pinning combinations, and "moves" off of the bottom. The officials would treat all others as penalty points, and follow the 1-1-2-out criteria.

I have a 12 year old wrestler that is in the top of novice and bottom of open. This is his first year on the mat. We went to open tournaments and he wrestled well but lost most of his matches by getting pinned. Then last weekend we went to a novice tournament and he just made it look like it was a cake walk. Of course, as a coach I am getting yelled at for bringing him to a novice tournament, even though he fit the guide lines set by the state. This week we are taking him to another novice tournament but moving him up two weight brackets so that maybe the weight will give him some competition but at the same time not get him destroyed. I know no matter what I do it is considered wrong by some coaches and ok by others. I just would like him to stay out and not get discouraged. As a small high school we need all of the wrestlers that we can get.

By putting a kid in Novice after the second year sends a fuzzy message to the kid. He thinks his coach doesn't have confidence in him. He will never learn to face adversity by dodging it. Folks, wrestling is a TOUGH sport. Not everyone can do it. I don't buy into the argument of letting them stay in Novice just to win. They need to have just as much fun losing as they do winning. If not, the athletes coach or parent is teaching the wrong message. I saw my own kids football team lose almost every game. They didn't care. THEY STILL HAD FUN. That is what is all about. Don't install a false sense of security by dodging competition. I personally have been dominated in my youth and college days. Being dominated made me better. Unfortunately, not every kid is made for wrestling.

Itrain's ideas on limiting allowed moves at novice tourneys is interesting. If wrestlers were limited to leg takedowns only and could only use halfs, cradles or other basic pinning moves with no guillatines, headlocks, scissors or other upper level and/or painful moves, then perhaps more advanced wrestlers would not be in attendance and if they are in attendance then the damage they do to less experienced psychees (sp?) may be less. Also I don't like the practice of cutting(taking down and releasing repeatedly)at these novice tournaments.

i agree w/ itrain

in my fourth year of coaching i to have seen two sides of the coin. ive had a 2nd yr. kid qualify for state and place. but also have coached a child for four yrs who has maybe scored 10 points in this span. he has never won a match in novice or open. to me it is clearly going to have to be a coaches decision and i believe there are few coaches that would cheat the kids.but there will always be a few. by the way wrestling is a tough sport but it is for anybody that is willing to show up and do it (good or bad)

We have had the same problem with a 10 and Under Novice kid this year. Each Tourney he has signed up for except for 2 he has had to been turned away since there were no kids for him to wrestle. He is a big kid at about the same height and also weighing 195. The last 2 tourney's that he was able to wrestle in he had to go up in age groups just to have someone to wrestle. This weekend, not only does he have to go up in Age group, but he also has to wrestle in the Open tournament at Derby instead of the Novice (btw he is a first year kid)