Does anyone have the state difinition of a novice wrestler?

Thanks.

This seems to be an ongoing problem. Some of the blame is with the parents and some of the blame rests on the coaches.
If the tournament directors would check their results from the previous day alot of these problems would be solved. The problem lies mainly with the money. If they disqualify a wrestler for placing in an open they should refund the novice entry-that's probably not going to happen!
The ultimate responsiblity is with coaches. They should know when their wrestler is not a novice.
The "Rule of thumb" states 2yrs. experiance and not have placed in an open. The "not have placed" part of the equation is not valid as many of the open tourneys are 3-4 man round robin and
all a kid has to do is make weight to place. I have had kids who love wrestling, but will always be novice level no mater how many years they wrestle. So I have allowed them to compete at the novice level regardless of how many years experiance they have, with no complaints.
In my opinion it is the coaches descresion as to if the wrestler is novice or not-he should know.
The clubs having novice tournaments should police this better also. They can check the wrestler against his/her registration as to years wrestled. (This would create more work-probably not going to happen)
If the problem persits submit your concerns to your Dist. Rep.

There are no rules regarding novice qualifications but rather guidelines. It is up to each tournament to decide what if any guidelines they want to use.

Okay, there has been a lot of talk about wrestlers being in the Novice category that maybe shouldn't be there...but what about when a novice wrestler wrestles in an open tournament? We had a situation this weekend wherein a clearly novice wrestler was in my son's round robin. My son could have pinned the novice in very little time. In order to allow both to have more mat time, my son worked on some of his moves instead of pinning the other wrestler immediately. The other coach got mad and stopped the match before time had expired or a Technical Pin resulted.

What's everyones thought here? We had expected the novice wrestler and his coach would be appreciative that we didn't pin him immediately..but maybe that's what we should have done.

Being a 2nd year dad, i know all too well the difference between novice kids and Open kids. I also have 2 very different kids as wrestlers. Last year my youngest took off with the sport and we entered him in as many tournaments as possible, both Novice and Open. We finally had to stop entering him in novice tournaments because it was clearly a case of just working moves on the "easy" kids. My oldest is still in Novice this year again and is finally starting to like the sport, due to the fact that he has already won more matches in his first tournament this year than all of last year. (1 match won all of last year).

I believe that it is up to the Coach to use discretion when a wrestler needs to "graduate" from novice to open. However, some clubs don't always stick to that "Rule of thumb". I have already noticed some of our clubs "novice" wrestlers that probably need to be bumped up not only because they dominate in the novice tournaments, but because they need more tougher competition in order to make them better wrestlers.

I believe that when Derby held the Novice championships last year it was a good policy to have ONLY first year novice wrestlers attend. This made for some good quality wrestling and put everyone on a level playing field.

I would like to point out something that has bothered me as of late regarding novice tournaments.

In novice we are trying to encourage the kids and the parents to stay with the sport and every bit of encouraging is helpful. In this it dissappoints me when I see several novice brackets being 8 man and sometimes even 16 man double elimination brackets. These kids should be divided up into 4 man round robins as much as possible to 1. get more mat time. and 2. bring home something for their effort win or lose. I know this can be somewhat expensive for the tournament director, but are we not in this for the kids anyhow?

I too agree with the notion that a "novice" should truly be a "novice".

I suspect we've all seen and heard it. Every single tournament this season thus far, I have personally seen it and heard from several parents statements like "There's no way that (whomever) kid is a novice", or "I just saw that (whomever) kid at an open tournament last weekend (or even yesterday, or last week, etc.)"

In my humble opinion, this action from parents (the biggest villan in this scenario), and a close second, various club coaches, and a neck-in-neck tie for second would be tournament directors.

Maybe I am clueless here (no comments from the peanut gallery please!), but IMHO, a more thorough and critical look at USA cards might help out in this novice/open debate.

I totally understand the thought behind some more experienced, but not yet that successful in open tourneys wrestling in novice tournaments, because either the parent or coaches or both just want to get the kid more mat time and experience, etc. Totally understand that, but it also taints the whole concept of the novice status and thought behind a novice only tournament. Again, IMHO.

PROUD MOM: Your case is unfortunate. An open tournament is OPEN to the world. An opponent and coach should know that any outcome is expected.
Seems to me your opponents coach was novice also.
I would suggest in the future get the match over in the 1st period and move forward. This will save humility issues with other coaches & parents.

PROUD MOM: The example you gave with your son, was it at the Johnson County Tournament?

As with anything there are always at least 2 sides to every story....I will try to present the perspective from the other side.

We had a coach stop a match this weekend in the exact same position that PROUD MOM was in only our kid was the Novice wrestler. Given that I would like to offer our perception and our point of view....

1. If your intent is to give both kids "more mat time" I applaud you for your noble effort. However, I recommend that in the future you talk to the other coach so that both coaches understand what it taking place.

2. In our situation, the idea of more mat time doesn't hold water. We teach our kids to go out and compete as hard as they can. We understand that in some cases that may not be for too long given their level of experience. There is a difference between getting "mat time" that means something and being a "clinic" partner for someone who wants to demonstrate moves.

In our case that is how we perceived it. Our kid was getting nothing but embarrasment and very negative mat time. Our biggest concern is that the kids try and take away something positive from every match, that cannot happen if they are humiliated. For the most part, kids in this situation are first year wrestlers and a little older (9-14 years). They understand they are behind the power curve and so we try and define success for them in other terms other than wins and losses.

My hope is that our kid continues to wrestle and is not so humiliated that he quits (hence the comment about talking to us before hand). If that would have occurred then we could have worked together to help each other achieve the goals we have set for our kids.

My intent here is not to throw stones....it is to clarify perceptions and identify I method to work together if we ever end up in the same situation.

Proud Mom: If it was our boy that your son was up against please wish him luck the rest of the season. My goal is to be able to get our kids to a better level so we can be good competition for the opponents that are at the level of your son.

PROUD MOM: The example you gave with your son, was it at the Johnson County Tournament?

As with anything there are always at least 2 sides to every story....I will try to present the perspective from the other side.

We had a coach stop a match this weekend in the exact same position that PROUD MOM was in only our kid was the Novice wrestler. Given that I would like to offer our perception and our point of view....

1. If your intent is to give both kids "more mat time" I applaud you for your noble effort. However, I recommend that in the future you talk to the other coach so that both coaches understand what it taking place.

2. In our situation, the idea of more mat time doesn't hold water. We teach our kids to go out and compete as hard as they can. We understand that in some cases that may not be for too long given their level of experience. There is a difference between getting "mat time" that means something and being a "clinic" partner for someone who wants to demonstrate moves.

In our case that is how we perceived it. Our kid was getting nothing but embarrasment and very negative mat time. Our biggest concern is that the kids try and take away something positive from every match, that cannot happen if they are humiliated. For the most part, kids in this situation are first year wrestlers and a little older (9-14 years). They understand they are behind the power curve and so we try and define success for them in other terms other than wins and losses.

My hope is that our kid continues to wrestle and is not so humiliated that he quits (hence the comment about talking to us before hand). If that would have occurred then we could have worked together to help each other achieve the goals we have set for our kids.

My intent here is not to throw stones....it is to clarify perceptions and identify I method to work together if we ever end up in the same situation.

Proud Mom: If it was our boy that your son was up against please wish him luck the rest of the season. My goal is to be able to get our kids to a better level so we can be good competition for the opponents that are at the level of your son.

I think there is a copy of it somewhere on this website, but, I can't find it right now. A couple of years ago at the state body meeting, they handed out a novice guidline sheet.
District 1 has adopted these guidlines, however, enforcing them is a very difficult task.
If the coaches would adhere to them by the letter it would be a lot easier.

Basically the guidelines are: Must be second year or less. Cannot have placed in more than 4 open tournaments. Cannot have won any open tournaments. Cannot have won more than 4 Novice tournament. Cannot be a placer in a state qualifying tournament.

If we could just get everyone to follow those guidelines, then the enforcement wouldn't be an issue.

All the criteria above is right except placing at a qualifying tournament and placing in 4 opens. There have been many times at subs that there are 4 kids at a weight as well as districts. The guidelines said, winning an Open tournament and winning more than 4 novice tournaments.

Novice tournaments are a great idea and if everyone tries to stay as close to possible about the rules of a novice then this can be a huge building block for all of wrestling.

I would like to see a letter in front of the card number the state sends out to say how many years the kid has wrestled or a number. This would help tournament directors as kids are called in. They could immediately say hey this kid is a 4th year card holder- why is he a novice- and the coach could then explain why?

Something to think about

Here are the KS State Novice Tournament Guidelines:

*Must be a first or second year wrestler
*Can not have placed in MORE than 4 Opens
*Can not have won an Open
*Can not have won more than 4 Novice Tourneys

They are listed as guidelines and not rules. There are exceptions. As coaches, we have the responsibility to make the right decisions on this issue. One real example is this.... A first year wrestler last year had 4 guys at his weight at Subs. He then got a scratch on the backside at District and qualified for State. He now has moved up to a new age bracket and has not won a match this year. He has potential to become a good wrestler, but he needs the competition from the novice tournaments to accomplish this. He now will be wrestling some novice tournaments and I'm sure there will not be an issue with it. It's the right place for him.

The purpose of these tournaments is to build the beginners wrestling knowledge, experience, mat time, confidence and ease them into the competition aspect of wrestling.

Kansas has a great platform for Novice tournaments. Keeping it that way should be a high priority.

Shawnbudke: Although I wasn't going to name tournaments or try to identify the kids involved, yes, it was the JO CO tournament and I am sure we are speaking of the same match.

It was not our son's intention or the intention of his coach that match (who also happens to be his dad) to humiliate your wrestler. During the first period when your coach told our coach that the wrestler was a first year, our coach told your coach we were just trying not to pin him. We knew from his previous matches that he was not real experienced, but were not aware that he was a 1st year. A conversation a ahead of time between the coaches, probably would have helped, but it was not clear until the match started how much of a disparity there were in the two levels.

Our wrestler's coach/dad does not have vast experience in coaching - he probably should have called our wrester over between the 1st and 2nd period and told him to go ahead and end the match. Our wrestler was upset that the match was ended early and didn't want the other wrestler to feel bad - he just wanted to wrestle. We had not been in quite this situation before where there was such a difference in the two level of wrestlers - we will certainly handle it differently in the future.

Please express to your wrestler that it was not our intention to humiliate him or use him as a "clinic" partner. Our wrestler saw him as just another wrestler. Hopefully, he will continue in the sport and grow to love it and have as much success as we are currently enjoying.

Proud Mom,

Thank you for your response. No worries. Our wrestler was back at practice last night and doing fine. I appreciate the mature dialogue we have been able to have on this subject. I do mean it when I say that your intent was correct. Every situation is different and it is good when we can learn from each other.

Please wish your son the best of luck the rest of the season. Look forward to seeing you again at some tournaments. If we are at the same tournament please let me know who you are (I am the shortest Ft Leavenworth coach). I look forward to meeting you and thanks again for the good dialogue.

Shawn Budke

Shawn, I agree, everything is much better when handled in a mature manner - like the adults we are suppose to be! When we again cross paths, I will be sure to try and track you down. I am glad your wrestler was back at practice and not to upset over that match.

I am kind of new to kids wrestling and do not know the exact rules about novice wrestlers. I do know that some coaches and kids have wrestled kids with more than 2 years experience in novice tournements. I use the Olathe novice this last weekend as an example. One kid I saw there wrestled at least three years ago against one of our wrestlers. At the Olathe novice this last weekend he wrestled another. the first year this kid wrestled he was obviously a novice and to see him there last weekend he was wrestling at an open level. Should the kid be to blame I think not we should blame the coaches that sign the kids up for a novice when they know better. Call it what you want but I call it CHERRY PICKING. This is not very much fun for the novice wrestler. I have my own novice wrestler who has never won a tournament but has placed in novice and open tournaments. Is it wrong for me to continue to enter him in novice tournaments? Should I only enter him in open tournaments? And why should I only enter in open if he has never won any tournament?
These questions of Novice or open wrestler will never be decided until the state decides to step in or coaches decide to have standard rules to follow.

Standard rules aren't the answer. You can't apply a cookie cutter rule when there are clear exceptions. There are several kids that have skill levels that are on the upper end of Novice and on the extreme lower end of Open. In most cases, a 3rd year wrestler should be Novice. I also don't believe the motivation is to pick cherries. It is a result of losing repeatedly at the Open level and not being competitive. To help the kids along in their developement, wrestling in a few more Novice tournaments will provide them with the mat presence that they need.

I agree. There are many things in sports (and life) where another rule/law simply won't help. A state rule still requires the host clubs and club coaches to be inforced. We see too many rules now that go unheeded, and unpunished when caught. Another rule is not the answer.

Why can't the rule be: If you are a 3rd year wrestler, you are OPEN! No room for error. I am not sure if the cards show origination dates or not. The dates would have to be sent in with with the registration sheets for each tourney.