California has 1 classification... I am just saying

Greg,
If you add another class that is another state championship series. Are you discounting the cost for more schools to travel that would otherwise be staying at home? I would love to see tht numbers swhich show that post season is not a burden, financially, on schools and KSHSAA. I really don't think attendance will pay for golf, volleyball, cross country, tennis, baseball, etc. Just doesn't seem possible.

Really?! Amazing and good for them. Seems like a nice role-model for the rest of the states that have multiple state tourneys . . .

Let's look at some state wide numbers.

I count 356 KSHSAA member schools (2009/2010 School Classification). 32-6A, 32-A, 64-4A, 63-3A, 64-2A, 101-1A.

I count only 24 KSHSAA member parochial or private schools (P/Ps). Zero 6A, 4-5A, 3-4A, 6-3A, 6-2A, 5-1A.

Could have missed a school in either count.

A little simple division shows that only 6.7% of member schools are private or parochial. Thus, 93.3% of the membership are public high schools.

Check out the lists of current and past champions in each sport (reference Gary Siebel post above). Clearly indicates private and parochial schools have won far out of proportion state championships. In volley ball, soccer (boy and girls), base ball, soft ball, and basket ball are all dominated by the P/P schools--in some sports almost to the exclusion of public schools.

State championships only tell part of the story. Look at the number of P/P schools in the state semi-finals. I could only find info for 2009/2010. Boys soccer: 5A: 2 of 4 semis from P/Ps, plus the state champ; 4321A: 2 of 4 semis plus state champ. Girls soccer: only one class (54321A) 4 of 4 semis plus the state champ. Foot ball: 5A: 2 of 4 semi-finalists, 4A: 2of 4 semi-finalist plus state champ; 3A; 1 of 4 semi and state champ. Similar for all other sports in all classes. Not going to go through every sport. Think you can get the picture!

Why do P/P schools advance so far and win state championships?? Good question. Is it better coaching---not always--lots of very good public school coaches. Must be something else. Might be the athletes, and the number of extra good athletes at P/P schools. But, why are their athletes better than almost all other public schools in almost all sports. It has to generate that P/P schools have a disproportinate number of good athletes way out of wack with their expected 6.7% of the total of all HS athletes. Has to raise the question of how do the P/P shools get all those extra ordinary athletes.

Shoul be recognized there has been some very harsh feelings out there for a long, long time over trying to compete against private and parochial schools.

Just a couple of thoughts about the crap that P/Ps save the public schools money, that P/Ps are more efficient. How many P/Ps have special education programs, how many have alternative schools, how many have English as a Secondary Language Programs, how many stuudents do they have on free or reduced price breakfast and lunch. All of these type programs are hughe drains on public school budgets, administrators and staffs at all grade levels, facilities, transportation, etc. So, why should they now put up with inequities, real or perceived, in High school sports.

I think the proposal to split 4A into 4A1 and 4A2 and put all private and parochial schools into two separate classes has no merit. It would generate another 2 or 3 new state tournaments in each sport, and it would be costly.

Right now I would not see the benefits of modifying the current class structures into a 48 school'Big Class", a 48 school "Not So Big Class" and then doing something with the current 32 smallest schools in 4A.

The proposal to move private and parochial schools up to the next higher classification has merit. It maintains the current classification structure and state level play in all sports, and it costs nothing--no new state tournaments, no two stand- alone P/P classes with only 24 schools with an enrollment range of 17 to o/a 850 students. Will it bring equity in sports competition---would have to be better than what we see now.

I would think that Private and parochial school administrators, ADs, athletes, and yes, parents, would agree that this proposal might be the best in the long run for their schools, rather than some less pleasant alternative. Don't believe many would want to suffer the expenses of travel to KC, ST Louis, Denver, Omaha, Memphis, etc for every team to find opponents outside the boundaries of Kansas.

With all the emphasis on athletics under KSHSAA, its interesting that when you look at non athletic activities under KSHSAA (Debate, Scholars Bowl, etc.) that the private schools seem to outperform the public shools by even a larger margin. Wonder why that is? Could it be the students? They must be recruiting these students as well. Why isn't everyone at arms about this? Back to wrestling, if you look at the top 10 teams from each state tournament the last 4 years, your 6.7% would be fairly accurate. 2010, 4 of 40 top 10 team placers with none in the top 5. 2009 3 of 40 with none in the top 5, 2008 3 of 40, Carroll State Champs, and 2007 2 of 40 STA State Champs and Carroll 2nd.

I am currently trying to obtain an electronic copy of the KSHSAA Public and Private Study Committee conducted from March 2006 - September 2007. It must be a very long detailed report. I am trying to find out what public and private schools participated in the study and who were the committee members.

Below was a response to an e-mail I got earlier today.

The research referred to comes from the KSHSAA Public and Private Study Committee findings conducted from March 06 – Sept 07 and reported to KSHSAA in September of 07 in which their findings stated: “ Data demonstrates that private schools win a disproportionate percentage of state titles; private schools earn a disproportionate percentage of post season final eight, final four and championship game opportunities when compared to public schools. Historically, there have been schools – both public and private – that have attained and maintained a high level of success in a specific sport/ activity.” I am sure that if you contact KSHSAA that they could forward you a copy of the full report.

"If you add another class that is another state championship series. Are you discounting the cost for more schools to travel that would otherwise be staying at home? I would love to see tht numbers which show that post season is not a burden, financially, on schools and KSHSAA. I really don't think attendance will pay for golf, volleyball, cross country, tennis, baseball, etc. Just doesn't seem possible."

I am not discounting the cost of travel for another champ series; ALL schools NOW are involved in first round competition and tournaments (except football). The additional travel will be restricted to schools only in the new 4A and that will be a relative handful after the first round.

Post season is not a financial burden on the KSHSAA--that is how they make their money! I do not say it is not a financial burden on schools that host; I was the one who pointed out in November the costs of hosting a regional wrestling tournament in light of the current budget crisis and was basically ridiculed for not knowing what I was talking about. Point being, it is expensive to host post-season events but the proposal adds that cost to only those schools who accept the assignment.

As is usually the case in school sports, KSHSAA Football, Basketball and Wrestling revenue helps pay the costs of the sports which do not generate as much revenue. Aside from annual dues (I think it is $450/year/high school and $250/year/middle school) and nominal entry fees for post season entries (a percentage of which stay with the host), there are NO other funds that go directly from schools to the KSHSAA. So, you can believe it or not, but revenues from admissions at the state championship events and the percentage of the gates that go from local hosts of preliminary rounds to the KSHSAA pays the KSHSAA's bills. Heck, admission is even charged at the State Cross Country meet--or I should say it is attempted as it is kind of hard to charge admission at a golf course with so many places to enter (no fences!).

". . .its interesting that when you look at non athletic activities under KSHSAA (Debate, Scholars Bowl, etc.) that the private schools seem to outperform the public shools by even a larger margin." shudog

Anecdotal: My youngest son was on two scholars bowl teams here in Norton that placed at State; second in 4A in 2002 and 3rd in 3A in 2003. In 2002 we lost the championship to a private school and in 2003 we were the ONLY public school to make the final four.

Shudog:

Wrestling is only one sport, and the only sport not dominated by the paochial schools. Why is This? Wrestling is an individual athlete's sport than accumulates team points based on the individual athlete's success. Would not expect the small number of parochial school wrestlers to stand out as much against the large total number of public school wrestlers.

Contrarian,

Junction City HS is not a parochial school and yet we were undefeated state champions in football the year before last. Isn't it Olathe South that has a bunch of football titles and they are a public school? I imagine the same can be said of many basketball teams that have won state titles. I know on the MO side, Rockhurst (parochial) is very hard to beat at football but so is Blue Springs (public).

It doesn't appear to me that your argument holds much weight.

Am I missing something?

Did not say JC HS was a parochial school. The KSHSAA list of member schools shows a class 1A JC Saint Xavier. Assume this is a parochial school!

Because you (JC) and Olathe North are 6A schools you do not compete with parochial schools at state tournament level play (there are no parochial or private 6A schools).

You need to go look at 54321A history of state level competition and then perhaps you would understand what other postters and I are saying. And yes, it does hold weight for those shools, especially the kids, who year after year see their sport dominated by only a very few schools.

OK. I did not know that 6a had no private schools. Educate me please. What are these parochial schools that have dominated? I'm not being a smart a-- . I'm just curious.

I could definitely see the validity of our argument if I saw a list first.

Thanks.

There are lists on this forum and the post on Class proposal (parallel discussions).

I am not going to make another list. If you are intersed in this discussion check out the KSHSAA current and history of state Champions for each sport. Also need to look at the current year STate Tournament brackets to see the number of Parochial schools in the semi-finals of each sport in each classification, in each gender sport.

As a start, look at boys and girls soccer, volly ball, and base ball, soft ball--these are the most dominated by parochial schools. Other sports are similiar, but are not dominted as much as these sports.

If you do not know the details or the history, how can you come on here and post intelligently! Go do some home work!!

Asking questions is posting intelligently. That is one of the many ways that people learn. BTW, volleyball, softball and baseball are one word words.

Thanks for helping me learn more about this subject.

Dean

PS: It is hard to do homework when one has a job to go to in just a short while. I was just asking a few questions. Take a sedative and chill out. ;-)

No dog in this fight and don't really care...I have better things to do right now but this one observation and I'm out.

Seems to be a big push to allow MORE competition points so teams can have weekday duals, allow more travel, small schools get beat up for not seeking out the best competition but the irony of bashing this proposal because of the costs?

Every state contest draws a bigger crowd and more interest and makes money.

California doesn't have one football state champ, basketball state champ, etc.

I wonder how big the crowds would be at State if most schools had only one state qualifier?

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight either. Interesting points you brought up.

I guess if I look at the NFL, every playoff game most likely sold out (ie. lots of state tournaments) and did the Superbowl (one state final).

Again, I don't care much either way. Just trying to stimulate thought/discussion. Better to get back to work now are I will be using my mind to ponder how to get a new job! ;-)

I think you are dismissing this element too easily. I think good coaching and program development has a lot to do with those state championships. I may not have this exactly but I think Gwen Pike is the Bishop Miege girls volleyball coach. I believe she has been there about 30 years in that role and I believe she has about 19 state titles. She just won her 1,000 game this year. Terry English the Miege girls basketball coach has been there about 34 years with about 16 state titles. These two Miege girl coaches are very good and have definitely been a major factor in the success of these teams. They have developed winning programs. They have been a major factor in their team's success and I believe they would have been successful at both public or private schools. I believe Tony Severino the Rockhurst high school football coach also won a state championship at SM Northwest before he took the Rockhurst High School position.

The same can also be said about the impact of very good public coaches like Van Rose the SM Northwest cross country coach who has about 31 boys and girls state titles. The SM East boys swimming and diving coach has a strong long term success with state titles too. There have been numerous success stories like these in specific Kansas high school sports both in public and private schools that have successful long term coaches who have developed their programs over a period of years.

You also made a statement that wrestling is the only sport not dominated by the parochial schools. I do not agree with that either. The parochial schools have had some success in football but they far from dominate it. There are other sports too like track and field that they do not dominate.

That multiplier may be enacted but I am not sure how much it is going to change things. I still think Aquinas is going to have dominant boys and girls soccer teams, Miege girls will still do very well in volleyball and basketball as long as Gwen Pike and Terry English are coaching. Bishop Ward will still have a successful baseball team as long as Coach Hurla is there.
The private schools may win less state titles but my guess is that they will still win their disapportionate share. Aquinas won in wrestling in 6A and 5A in 2005 and 2007. Hutchinson has won football titles in both 5A and 6A. It is hard to beat good coaching and dedicated athletes.

Just to clarify - Hutchinson is a public school - correct?

Thanks.

Yes it is a public school but my point in mentioning it in my last post is to point out that good teams with good coaches and dedicated athletes at either private or public schools are going to probably be successful no matter what class they compete in. Hutchinson's current football team with its great coach and athletes is a prime example of that as was the Aquinas wrestling teams of 2005 thru 2007. Both of these teams have won state titles both in 5A and 6A. Hutchinson's football team has done it multiple times in both classes.