Revolution,

Study the issue a little further and you'll learn the difference between your example and reality. It's not "the way it is" in several states, so the opposition to this rule is not without merit.

Eric Johnson
Renegades Wrestling Club

The difference is that the younger kids practice with their Kids' clubs only two to three times a week. A ninth grader is practing 5 days a week. They are also wrestling and practicing against junior and seniors. Most people think this sharpens their skills. At the same time the 8th grader often does not even have a practice partner of his age to work on his or her skills.

Regardless of the issue, why is it whenever our state does something different from another state or states, that some people automatically assume we are doing it wrong? Maybe just maybe, we are doing it right and all the others are wrong. Frankly, I never sell the overall intellect of Kansans short!

You all knew the rules going in to the season.
If you don't like it either quit wrestling, or change the rule.
In "reality" that is all you can do.
There is no rule that says you can only practice 3 days a week and nothing says you have to practice with your club only.
If your concerned about quality practice time go find it, or create it.
It's always been a "reality" to me that "you only take out of an endevor what you put into that endevor".
To Renegade Kid: I was refering to people in Kansas, that is where we are wrestling.

There are always going to be kids who have an advantage or disadvantage no matter what the age or class. For example, "Johnny" who lives close to Wichita and is in a very active freestyle, greco ect club with several high quality coaches and access (money) to attend National wrestling tournaments is going to have more advantage sover "Joey" who lives in a small town with a disorganized club and no access to highly competitive tournaments. Life is not fair. It is what we do with it that decides who we are.

There are many benefits of having 14U versus Junior High and High School separation. Yes, other states do it differently but are they right and we are wrong? Do they have a higher percentage of kids being "red-shirted"? Are they like some states that do no believe in starting Kindergarten unless they are 5 before December? In Kansas, the reason we have so many Freshman wrestling in 14U is because their birthdays are in the summer. If we had the same start date for Kindergarten as California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan or Montana (all of these states require that you turn 5 before December to enroll instead of Sept.), there would only be a very small group of 14 year old Freshman. Maybe this is why Kansas has its policy and those states have theirs.

As evidenced by previous posts, several people in Kansas have brought it up before.

How does an 8th grader create a 5 day a week practice schedule against juniors and seniors in high school? How can an 8th grader enter tournaments and wrestle against high school juniors and seniors from December thru February?

I think most Kansas wrestling people understand and believe that the majority of Kansas 8th graders are not going to experience the quality of practice and competition during the year that the majority of the Kansas 9th graders will experience. The supporters even though they realize it do not think it is enough of an issue to change the Kansas Kids State tournament system.

We could also just do it like in Nebraska. In Nebraska, you are classified by class and not by age. 1st and 2nd grade wrestle together, 3rd and 4th, 5th and 6th, 7th and 8th ect. Of course, you have parents complaining about a kid in 8th grade who is 15 years old and already growing a beard going against a kid who just turned 12 in September......

My point is if you don't like it-change it or move to a State you think you can compete in-or quit altogether. If you want quality practice time find it. It may take some effort but it can be done. May have to make some calls, or travel. It probably won't come in your comfort zone. For people in the KC Metro-plex it should be easier than for most of us West of US 81.

You that disagree with H.S. kids in KIDS competition should read the first post about the new bill to be debated allowing H.S. kids in the clubs. I personaly, don't like the idea as most H.S wrestlers are not good role modles for younger kids. ie. work ethic, and know it all attitude. As always there are exeptions to the rule.

I can't for the life of me understand this debate...
What is the difference between?
A. a freshman 14-year-old, who started wrestling in the eighth grade,
B. a 13-year-old "kid's club" wrestler who is in the eighth grade but started wrestling when he was five and attends a half dozen wrestling camps a year,
C. a kid who has a parent that was an elite wrestler and thus gets trained year round, and
D. a run of the mill "kid's club" wrestler who just happens to be genetically gifted?

I don’t know! They sound like a good mix of talented young wrestlers to me.
Bottom line, we have a sport that is based on a couple fixed metrics that can’t be changed the day of the match, namely weight and age.

Kansas is a great wrestling state because all of those kids mentioned above get a fair shot at being a champion because they are provided an opportunity to compete in a fair environment.
IF this change is made, where will we draw the lines next?
Second, what is the underlying goal of this debate? Hard to figure this one out. I thought the goal of the state championships was to determine the best wrestlers by age and weight. Any division of this population waters down the competition, and unfortunately for the eventual champion, brings into question the results of the contest. Who would want to be the 14 and under state champion, but have to be reminded that he didn't really compete against all of the competition? Like the tee-shirt says, how do we determine who the best wrestler is—“we wrestle!”

I say, leave this great system alone… and let the wrestlers figure it out.

Dking, probably the best post I have seen thus far on the subject. Fortunatly for you and I most of the rest of that agrees with us.

I'm with those that say let it be. If we change the 14U, where will it stop? What about my very young 12U wrestler(misses 10U by a matter of weeks) that has to wrestle 7th graders who have had Jr. High wrestling. He knows like his older brothers, that his turn will come and as for this year he will go out there, have fun and do his best, in the sport that he loves above all other sports.

There are twenty percent of the kids who's "turn" will never come. By that I mean, being a 9th or 10th grader and wrestling 14U. Your example of a 7th grader having the benefit of wrestling Junior High is actually a detriment, not a benefit. Sure, there are kids like Detmer and others that excel against High School wrestlers, but everyone that says "His turn will come" is missing the point. Many states understand this and have provided High School wrestlers with one State tournament instead of two.

Eric Johnson

Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
Your example of a 7th grader having the benefit of wrestling Junior High is actually a detriment, not a benefit.
Eric Johnson

Just because your Junior High or Middle School program doesn't live up to your expectations don't deride all the ones that do. Many of us have programs in leagues that are successful. Much of that may be due in part to parents/fans who didn't set around and whine about how bad the program was but instead worked to fix it.

sportsfan,

It is not a personal dig about which JH or MS programs live up to anyones expectations. It's purely math. Not as many matches with less competition. Nobody was derided. Just stating the facts.

Eric Johnson

I am a firm believer that wrestlers are made in the wrestling room and competition only tests what you've accomplished. If I am correct, then the JH/MS programs still are better because they practice 5 nights a week as opposed to the 3 of most clubs.

Ask the referees who do both JH and Kids Open tournaments which is tougher competition. Wrestlers are made in the wrestling room. Just not as fast in those rooms.

I guess next we'll be only letting wrestlers who are the same year of age and born in the same month wrestle each other, that way we know for sure there is absolutly no advantage given to one kid or another.

Which brings me to another point, there is no rules in USAWKS by-laws that prevent a club wrestler from practicing every night. They generally don't because there are few kids coaches who would open up the room 5 nights a week, and probably even fewer kids who would come in every night. So I find the example of High School/Middle schoolers being able to practice 5 days a week is a very weak arguement. If a 8th grader really wants to be able to compete with a kid who just months older than him but a grade ahead based on his birthday, then perhaps he should find a coach willing to open up the door for him to practice every night, rather than a coach who complains because their kids are disadvantaged for only getting to practice 2/3 nights a week.

The one thing I have noticed is, the kids who are talented and hard working, almost always win regardless of a few years age difference ie freshman who beat seniors.

And what do we do about leap year babies? They would have to be a whole new category/classification by themselves.

Nigel,

I thought you were going with "born on the same day". Anything to distract from the truth.

The question has never been answered by you in this debate. Why do other very successful wrestling states overwhelmingly disagree with you?

Are we missing something here in Kansas or do we just see clearer?

Eric Johnson