I believe that it mostly has to do with academics... If you want a better ride to college you go to private school it prepares you more. I dont think it is as significant of an advantage as you might say, unless you bring up some statistics ??

SHUDOG.

As for out of district students, not in my district.

I doubt there are very many student athletes or their parents who want to risk a 365 sports suspension (the KSHSAA rule) for playing out of district--or out of the home school boundary. In that same vane, doubt you will find a public school administrator or coach who knowingly will put their school and teams at risk by playing an out of district athlete.

Also, believe that where you do have out of district students, it is because differences in academic and vocational class offering. In this case I think the out of district student would be sent back to his home district for sports. And yes, a few out of district students and athletes probably drop through the crack. But certainly not to the extent you and Cokely think. Cokely mentions Kismet-Southwern Heights. Whats the big deal. Southwestern Height is a small 3A school with a 140 student enrollment. Why would a student athlete at Liberal HS, which has a very good sports history, go out of district to Southwestern Heights?

I think that you arguement is exceptionally weak and has no merit.

I do agree that there needs to be special provisions for the very small private schools---the smaller 2As and the 1As. I have no empathy for the STA, SJA, BM, maybe BW, KMC, BC, Hayden, Colgan, Salina SH, and a few others who year-after-year show up in the state tournament brackets

5647893,

Here's some statistics if you really want them.

Remember there are no 6A private schools

12.5% of 5A schools are private (4/32)

6.25% of 4A schools are private (4/64)

9.375% of 3A schools are private (6/64)

7.8% of 2A schools are private) (5/64)

2A through 5A Schools are made up of 205 (91.5%) public and 19 (8.5%) private.

Current State Champs Private Schools

Volleyball

5A, 4A, 3A

Football

4A 3A

Boys Baskeball

5A, 3A, 2A

Girls Basketball

3A

Baseball

4A 2-1A

Boys Soccer
5A and 4321A

Girls Soccer 54321A

Girls Tennis 5A and 321A

Boys Tennis 321A

3A boys basketball 6 state champions in a row have been private.

5A girls basketball 2nd 3rd and 4th places to private schools out of 4 private schools in the state.

No MFE, donations to the church are not sinister. But, if the church then applies that donation to a students tuition, and the parents then claim the church donation as an income tax donation, that is sinister. That is indirectly getting the public to pay the private tuition.

Also, about vouchers. If a black student from KC Harmon, a very much inner city schooland environment, with a voucher, with severe CP-in a wheel chair and requiring a full time para, are you and Cokely going to accept that student at your private school. I doubt it. But, I bet you will accept the normal child of the same religion as you who has a voucher. Why the voucher? Probably the parents, at the urging of the church and private school, just wanted to go to a private school. So, public funding of private schools. How will that improve public schools.

It causes competition within theses schools Contrarian... I believe Jebb Bush did a similar thing in Florida and not only did it benefit the students but it benefited the failing schools they were leaving. They had to work to get better teachers and make it more attractive to come to their school

Competion for students forces the quality to go up. Something you don't seem to understand. It has nothing to do about religion or RACE that you seem to always want to interject. Just for your information, the poor are very favorable to vouchers. Of course, the democrats and the NEA feast on playing the "class warfare" game and keeping the poor, poor!

Dam, PUBIC school administrators. That is a big mistake. My apologies and thinks for pointing it out. No, a spell checker would not have saved me!

Maybe I was confusing administrators with those public school students some poster said looked and acted like "pimps and prostitutes".

I just thought it was funny, i dont mean no harm its just a simple mistake i understand

OK, lets talk about the quality of schools.

Poor performing schools are mostly inner city schools. Yes, they have some weak teachers that are there only because of tenure. But, to me, they are not the total problem. Inner city Public schools face so many social, econmic, racial, drug (parent and student) and other problems that adversely affects the schools performance. Getting rid of a few teachers will help but will not solve the problems.

For what ever reason, our Federal and State governments have decided that many social programs are to be executed in public schools. These programs are all detractors to just educating. But, for example, are we not going to have free or reduced price breakfast or lunch, when these may be the only meals some of the kids get. There are a host of programs that are public school detractors.

Perhaps the biggest problem in many public schools, not just inner city schools, is the lack of parent envolvement. Put Johnny and Jane on the bus and forget about them. No breakfast, not dressed in acceptable attire, or for the weather, no involvement in doing, helping or checking of homework, and a whole list of other problems. When we can do something to improve a large segment of society, then perhaps we can see improve in our schools.

I do not mind nor am I jealous if carrying parents want to send their kids to private schools. But do not rob the public treasury, and do not claim an even playing field in sports. Now the same can be said of suburban schools. No way can KCKS compete with Blue Valley--in quality of teacher, class offerings or facilities. Acouple of years ago Sumner played I think it was Blue Valley West in a FB playoff game. Sumner showed up with 30++ players and three coaches. Sumner practices on a grassless, rocky field--they have no home field--home games are played at Wyndotte or Wasington. BVW suited probably 100 players, at least 10 to 12 coaches, and the field was state of the art artificial turf. Who won? Certainly not Sumner. Our kids were not disappointed--they were glad they had made it that far and got to play. Was it fair. Not even an issue. But, I do not think BVW was a repeater the following year--as many private schools are.

Why don't you enroll this wheelchair bound kid at the catholic school, and find out that you are wrong? Come down to the Lord's Diner here in Wichita and paint yourself, black, brown, orange, or pink, and see if you get turned away.

So taking church donations as a deduction on your taxes is wrong, but paying taxes that go to public schools, but that you don't attend, is right?

Please tell me what is the Lord's Diner. Do noy see it on the list of schools. Why go enroll the disabled child. Just have an administrator at STA, SJA, KMC, Bishop Carrol, Hayden, etc come on this forum and tell me they will accept the disabled child--and that he will even accept them without a voucher.

And again, go read what I said about church donations versus claiming that donation as a tax deduction if credited to the students tuition.

And yes, I do believe it is right that you pay property taxes and that some of that goes to public education. You made a personal decision to send your kids to a private school--so do not expect me to pay for it.

And I still have doubts that the private schools will accept very many of the special needs students. I are not talking "gifted and talanted, or learning disabilities. I am talking severe physical and mental, disabilities, autism, and very bad behavior disorders.

To Shudog's defense. Many districts including Contrarian's own home district of Lansing have "open enrollment". You fill out a form, get approved, and your in. If you do not move you have to sit for the mandatory 18 weeks. But several districts have out of district students that transfer in for a variety of reasons, social, academic, athletic, all of them combined. All perfectly within the KSHSAA rules.

I am a public school guy but my belief is...if a private school is 4a 5a, 3a or whatever by enrollment, leave them there and beat their ass. That is all I am saying to clear up the quotes sportfan02 was questioning. We are put in classes to give us a reasonable shot. It is perfect that Lansing with 577 kids has to compete with Emporia with 925? No wonder they beat us. Seriously, I choose to believe they beat us because they have a strong kids club, great tradition and coaching and they were simply better. Now it's on us to work harder to beat them.

Sportsfan02 don't be an irritant comparing this to having only one weight class in wrestling. A better comparison would be to make all kids that get extra help or go to Purler, Akin or any camps carry an extra weight provision like Jockeys do. So if you have been to Purler you need to weigh in 2 pounds less than a kid who has not. Gotta keep it fair.

Finally, rule are generally put in place to watch over the masses, the flyers or one achieving at the very high or low end are usually not covered. If we legislate for every possible option or scenario we create a burden to everyone like we are doing in Washington right now....Oh that is another subject.

And that is the point! In the opinion of many, most of whom have nothing to do with wrestling, the public schools do not have a reasonable shot. Certainly those statistics above would seem to indicate such. We can't look at this through the eyes of just wrestling fans. We have to consider all the sports, as is the case when certain KSHSAA rules that effect wrestling are hard to get changed. Often that reason is due to the impact it would have on all the sports as a whole.


Then don't say All that is required is for the public schools to work harder. Because if the playing field isn't level, all the work in the world will not matter.

Will,

You didn't make the uneducated quote very clear. If those that would have private schools bump up a class are uneducated then this whole discussion is about perception. If that were true you would have an argument but it's not. KSHSAA study on disparity shows there is something to the disproportionate amount of championships won by private schools. Other states add a multiplier to private schools. Characterize those thoughts the way you want to, but it holds water.

Brett, there are 5 states that have the multiplier. Illinois has it and it applies to any school with non boundary enrollment which includes public schools. If you read the conclusion to the study done by the Public-Private Study Committee it states that it recongnizes and agrees that inequities exist between member schools, however, not all inequities fall between public and private lines. The numerous factors referenced in their report help distinguish one school from another and provide differing opportunities for school communities to achieve and grow. The Commmittee challenges each school to dedicate its efforts in working to achieve the goals and principles of a healthy interscholastic progam. The report states that the implementation of a weighting/multiplier factor may be perceived to solve an isolated issue, but may lead to additional issues or concerns. Under the Findings section it is stated that there has been schools, both public and private, that have attained and maintained a high level of success in a specific sport/activity.

If there are 5 states with multipliers, how many other state distinguish between public and private schools by any means. Understand there are several states in the east that have separate public and private classifications for sports, and run separate state tournaments. Is this true, don't know. Just what I have heard.

Brett,

The number of championships won by private schools is not a good arguement. There are a vast number of variables that would have to be assessed. The "quick and dirty" solution is to penalize the private schools because they win.?! Seriously, an educated person would say that this clearly does NOT hold water. Again, the biggest sports dynasties in Kansas have nearly all been public schools. The message to our kids should be "Not everyone can be a champion. Work as hard and as SMART as you possibly can. If you still come up short that is life. Not everyone is going to be a champion. Life is NOT a level playing field so why deceive our high school kids into thinking it should be? I thought the goal was to get kids to participate, learn and grow. If we have to tell them they are going to be champions to make that happen then we are all in trouble.

I went to a public school and I would have sent my kids to a public school now but there is SO much red tape to get something done. Schoolboard, superintendent, asst. superintendent, principal, several asst. principals, athletic directors, yada yada yada. I wanted my kids to have a schedule that made them work hard in the classroom, on the mat, and at home. That is what it takes to be successful in the real world. You are not always in your office (classroom), you have to make it happen (schoolwork and job assignments) and you have to be constantly preparing (promotions, wrestle offs, grades, raises). In our school if it is a good idea and we can make it happen then it does! No BS. That is why I pay, not because being in a private school automatically makes you better equipped to be a champion.

Could you not tell private school kids the same thing if they were to play up a classification? The old life's not fair lesson is good for the public school kids but not the private school kids?

We're not saying private school students cannot compete, participate, learn and grow. Why not tell them what you want us to tell our kids?