Dang I wanted to say that!

It does not really effect me or my kid either way, but has anybody thought about the schools that will be moving down as a result of moving the private schools up? Sure you move STA, BC up to 6a maybe SJA to 5a, and TMP to 4a, but you would also have Lawrence-free state, Leavenworth and Blue Valley maybe move down to 5a. Lawrence FS is very good in BB, baseball, and some other sports, Leavenworth Track already is very tough in 6a as is their basketball, and Blue Valley is good in tennis, VB and GBB.

Maybe one is better than the other but my point is if you scuffle some teams up you are going to scuffle some pretty good teams down as well.

It just seem like wasted effort to me. Miege is too small in 5a that unless you just give a one class auto increase they will still be 5a with a 1.4 escalator or whatever has been discussed.

Basically this boils down to 4 schools...STA, SJA, Bishop Carroll, and TMP. KMC will be right on the edge of a class jump if you are using a 1.4 muliplier. They would bring that number to 5. There might be some really small schools I am not familiar with.

I personally could care less because we will figure out a way to compete and win. That is what we have always done. It just seems like a crappy lesson that my tax dollars are supporting. "If we can't beat them then lets penalize them!"

That is exactly right, Will. As I posted earlier the great programs like the Bishop Miege girls volleyball and basketball programs would have been winning over the last thirty or more years no matter what division in Kansas that they would have been in and that is due in a large part to the great coaches that those programs have had in those years Gwen Pike and Terry English. I would think that the area girls basketball and volleyball coaches would agree with my assessment. As I also said before the Aquinas soccer teams will be successful no matter what division they are in. I am pretty confident that the 6A soccer teams who have to face those Aquinas soccer teams would prefer that Aquinas stay in 5A. But these private school team long term success stories are no different than some public school teams with similiar long term success records. I believe Coach Van Rose of SM Northwest boys and girls cross country has something like 31 state titles in 40 years. Is that long enough for a public school success record for some of you who want to say that public school success stories never seem to last as long as private school success records? The SM East boys swimming and diving coach has been there a long time and has numerous state titles. Hutchinson football had been at a very low point for a long time untill their current coach came in 1998 and turned the program around. Great coaches make a difference. They still need the athletes but without a doubt great coaches are a very big factor. All coaches are not the same in ability. Just as there can be great athletes there can also be great coaches. There are not a lot of Romero Cotton level athletes just as there are not a lot of Van Rose type coaches.

Do I think coaching differences are the only reason for the differences in high school teams success? No, there are other things too like athletic talent, tradition, parental involvement, and community spirit, etc. . I do not claim there is a perfectly level playing field out there. But at what lengths are we supposed to go to level the playing field out? It has been posted on this topic now that the teams in KCK are really not on a level playing field with the Blue Valley kids. I believe the reason had something to do with family income levels and possibly parental involvement. So would that would be the next thing we need to handicap within the public schools (income and parental involvement diffences between schools)? Or maybe we need to be sports specific and make the SM Northwest cross country team start an extra quarter of a mile or so behind the rest? I mean where do you stop in trying to even the playing field out?

We have already tried to level it out in coaching differences by not allowing coaches to do any off season coaching during the school year. We also try to level out the coaching differences in building a program by not allowing the coaches to participate in a youth program in their sport. So we end up not allowing a coach who wants to work harder than the next coach to build a strong sports program. I know the rationale is that we are protecting the kids from an overzealous coach but sometimes I wonder who really are protecting because rules could be put in place and enforced to protect for an overzealous coach. I personally do not expect a coach to have to work extra by having off season workouts for his team or have to build a program by supervising a youth team in his sport but I do not think we should prevent a coach who wants to do that the extra work to build a strong program. In our sport of wrestling in my opinion one of the most important things we need to get changed is the restriction that is currently in place that does not allow our high school wrestling coaches to coach their own wrestlers freestyle and greco until the summer. We need to get that changed. In my opinion it should be accepted because the olympic styles are a different sport than our high school folkstyle.

After all the cussing and discussing and listening to all the reasons why private schools are so successful, and public schools are lesss sucessful, I have come to the conclusion that public schools can never compete with private schools in either athletics or academics. As long as public shcool administrators and teachers are uneducated, try to teach the un-disciplined and un-teachables, who look and act like pimps and prostitutes, there is no future for public education. I originally thought the best proposal, for public and private schools, would be to bump the private schools one classification. Now, in my opinion, the probable best course would be to separate private and public schools by creating one or more private school only classifications--perhaps even have private schools form their own separate activities association, their own leagues, their own post season state tournaments, and their own academic activities. They would not have to be concerned with public schools and we would not be concerned with them.

Why don't we just give every school a state championship trophy in every sport, every year? That would keep these poor kids from having to face the agony of defeat. They would also have lots of extra free time to go smoke dope and get drunk, cause they really wouldn't have to practice. And we would only have to keep a few of them eligible, at least enough to field a team anyway. That would be where I would draw the line, in order for you to get your trophy, your football team has to have at least 11 kids eligible, Bball 5 kids, etc.

I can't wait to tell my kids they WILL be state champs when they get to HS. My oldest daughter will be upset that she and her teammates had to actually work to earn their softball state title.

Don't know what we're gonna do with the good coaches we have here at Andale. Wait, I think I just solved the budget crisis. Let the kids coach themselves, and take away all of the supplemental contract money we spend on them.

No Doug747.That wouldn't be fair to require them to field a full team of eligible players. We would have to kick some of the eligible ones off the other team to make it even. Also, we need each school to get 4 state championships in each sport because it isn't fair that sophmores and juniors have to play against seniors ect. I guess it really wouldn't be fair to require them to be eligible because if you are poor or a minority, you just can't study like the rest of the kids. Of course, since some of the parents don't spend the time working with their kids, these kids should be rewarded with the biggest trophy. Then they should automaticly get a "Full Ride" scholarship and given the highest paid jobs when they get out of school. The list goes on! PS: Doug, under this scenario, you and the other parents who spend thousands of hours working with the youth at Andale , could spend that free time in the bars and clubs. Darn! I need to change parties and become a democrat!

The multiplier is purely a form of discrimination. Most always directed at religious schools. If you have never had a child in any other school other than public then you have no basis for judgment against these schools. If you think that Catholic schools are so bad and would never take on a truly disabled child then please go to the following website:http://www.fire-program.org.

OK. I looked at the Fire web page. See a lot of fund raising activities, lots of golf tournaments, folks standing around grinning for the camera. What I do not see are pictures of severely handicapped children in a parochial school. I read the news article about the three special needs boys-did not see any pictures of the boys--what is their needs-and what assistance do they require--wheel chairs, crutches, paras. Apparently, since they play softball, their needs are not physical. My wife was a special needs teacher; and there are different severities and levels of needs and assistance. Public schools serve them all. Do private schools?

And, I do not think there is any discrimination toward private or parochial schools in any post by any poster on this forum. The issue is not religion--it is about HS athletics and the totally disproportionate number of state championships won by private schools. Private schools make up only 6+ percent of Kansas high school. But they win from 25 to 100% percent of championships. Why? This is what this forum has been discussing.

Bill, have you ever consdered putting your name as a signature at the bottom of your post like I and others do? I prefer to address you as Bill which you stated was your first name in an earlier post. I really had to take some time though to go back and find it.

Bill, I dont think a private school multiplier would be direct discrimination against religious schools but indirectly it is because I think the overwhelming majority of the private schools are religious schools.

You say that the issue is the disapportionate amount of state championships of the 6+% of the private schools that win from 25 to 100% of the state championships. Bill, don't you think up to 100% is a pretty big exaggeration in your statement? But regardless is there some kind of quota on the number of statement championships that a school or group of schools in a category are supposed to win and if they go over that quota are we then suppose to handicap the schools?

Because if that is the case then we do need to also handicap public schools that win a disapportionate amount of state championships. We should do this so we are not being discriminatory to the private schools in our handicap system. We should immediately start handicapping in some way the Hutchinson football team, the SM East swimming and diving team, and the SM Northwest boys and girls cross country teams. I think we might have to throw the Goddard wrestling team in there too.

Bill, you are never going to be able to make it a perfectly even playing field in high school athletics. You have pointed out yourself in this topic how the Blue Valley public schools areas now have an advantage over the KCK public school areas. So should we handicap the Blue Valley schools over the the KCK schools even if they both fall enrollment wise in the same Kansas state classification? I would think you should think so or otherwise your handicapping is discriminatory to just private schools.

Public schools getting beat by public schools is not the issue. Yes, there are lots of unfair things in the world. Inner city/urban schools certainly do not have the many things large suburban districts take for granted: artificial turf football stadiums, immaculate soccer fields, swimming pools, tennis courts, gymnastics programs, etc. Smaller rural districts also do not have these amenities. But, using Cokelys "ironic", how do the private schools dominate even the suburban schools in athletics. As for percentages you need to look at the history of state championships in all sports. Aquinas soccer approaches 100%. You list the Volleyball success at Bishop Miege. How about the baseball championships of Bishop Ward, or the string of football success by Pittsburg Saint Marys Colgan. Or, KCC successes in socer and basketball. And then Topeka Hayden in football and basketball. This forum started out to discuss the NCK League to split 4A into two classes. Several poster said the basis of this NCKL proposal was that public schools in that region were tired of losing year after year to Hayden.

You keep alluding its better coaching in the private schools. And yes, there are some long term successful public school programs. You best example is SMNW Cross Country. But, looking at the history of state championships--I do not see SMNW championships in other sports. As for Hutchinson football, see no history other than football of championships in any other sport. Smithcenter is on a roll I think in football and I think baseball. So what? Way up and out there is another world, plus the private schools they have to play are not perinnal powers in any one sport (although several of the smaller private schools fill up the state level brackets--and often win their own championships. Emporia is and has been an outstanding wrestling school. But, I see no private schools in Emporia, Hutchinson, Smith Center, and a host of other towns/school district that siphon off the athletic talent. As I said previously, coaches without the athletes are just PE teachers.

I said in a post yesterday that I now conclude the best course of action is perhaps to go ahead and separate public and private schools--no competition in any sport. Private school leagues, private school championships, perhaps even a separate private school activites association (Cokely and MFE would then not have to get wound up about KSHSAA, public school administrators and administrations, or public school kids). If private schools want to fill out a schedule, play Rockhurst or a couple of the other private KCMO private schools, go play Springfield Catholic--they have comparable sports records as Kansas private schools. Wichita area private schools can travel into Oklahoma searching for teams to play. From one of your latest post you seem to agree with separating the schools, plus something about the coaches could then help coach your club teams, and you would not be bothered by other KSHSAA restricytions (is that Cokely's out of state travel restriction, or his out of season coaching by the HS coaches).

Bill Mason
Lansing

I know there are spelling and grammer mistakes--everyone get over it. Still waiting for RichardD--who gets upset at such errors and likes to call people stupid-- to get a spell checker installed.

Added. No there is no quota on championships. But, if it quacks like a duck, walddles like a duck, swims like a duck, then it probably is not a chicken, or a rabbit, or a cow, etc., etc

Perhaps we could handicap 6A sports dynasties by bumping STA, KMC, BC, up to 6A, or bump Miege and Hayden to 5A to oppose Hutch football, and don't forget SJA-they could play Miege in volleyball and soccer.

No way we can make it perfect. Not trying to. But you still have not explained the disparaties that lots of posters have listed as facts on this forum.

Vince,

Let's change the question. What percentage of state championships would the private schools have to win to cause you to believe they may have an advantage beyond superior coaching?

There are numerous advantages to private high schools in the area of athletics. Period. If you put one non Kansas resident on a kids club wrestling team, everybody is outraged. Put several Missouri kids on a Kansas high school state championship baseball team and all we hear is that they are better coached. Any attempt to question it makes you a democrat, catholic bashing, soft on crime, granola eating, tree hugging hippie.

To be honest, I've never really felt strongly about the issue. I've known there were advantages, but I've never really cared that much. Until this thread, I never realized how significant the disparity in championships actually was.

KC Sportsmom,

I apologize if you think I am discriminating on the basis of a schools religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not have a problem with Catholicism or private schools. If private school was an option for my children, I would seriously consider it. This is not about religion for me.

Vince does not want to be tied down to a stated percentage--he would then have to defend private school championship history and facts---something he has yet to do-at least with facts.

It must be that private schools are not winning championships--54321A public schools are losing them--it is the public schools fault.

Bill Mason
Lansing

So what you seem to be saying is that you don't have any problem with public schools have advantages over other public schools just private schools having some sort of advantage over public. Is that all you are concerned about in the question of a level playing field in high school athletics?

I do not think that is true. It may be true around here in soccer because of Aquinas and their coach Craig Ewing but I don't think private schools in this area dominate the Blue Valley or Olathe schools in most sports.

That precisely supports my point that much of the time great coaches have created all these long term success records. The very fact that SMNW and Hutchinson are not winning state championships in other sports supports the fact that it a big part of their success can be contributed to Van Rose in SM Northwest in cross country and Randy Dreilling is football. The same can also be said that great coaches like Terry English Bishop Miege basketball who has been there over thirty years with a similiar record to Van Rose's at SM Northwest and Gwen Pike in volleyball at Miege have also contributed significantly to their success. I am very confident that Bishop Miege would not have nearly the amount of girls basketball or volleyball titles without Terry English and Gwen Pike coaching there. I am also extremely confident that Hutchinson would not have won six straight football titles with Randy Dreiling coaching there.

I don't know what actual percentage would convince me of that? How many state championships does the Hutchinson football team have to win in a row after being basically winless several years before Randy Dreiling's arrival before I can get supporters are your side to admit that great coaching is a very significant factor in high school state championship records? Or how many cross country state titles does Van Rose have to win at SM Northwest before I can get you to admit that? No matter what you say Great Coaching is a factor in some of the long term state championship records of Kansas private school teams. I know it is with Terry English for the Bishop Miege girls program, for Gwen Pike with the Miege girls volleyball, for Craig Ewing with the Aquinas boys and girls soccer and for Dennis Hurla with the Bishop Ward baseball program.

Is great coaching the sole factor? I never said that is was the sole factor but I do think it is the major factor in teams with such long term success records.

I don't think private schools necessarily have more athletic kids than public schools. I do think there can be some of the advantages that many of you have brought up like kids that come from wealthier families and possibly more parental involvement. But wealthier school districts like the Blue Valley, Olathe and Shawnee Mission can also have those same advantages that come wealthier families. Is it fair probably not but you are always going to have these kind of disadvantages. If you put the multiplier in to effect it will not change that drastically the success of programs with great coaches and tradition like Miege girls basketball and volleyball, Aquinas boys and girls soccer. It will make it harder for the sports programs at many of the private schools that do no have near that type of success record to compete at their state championships. It will not stop all the sports inequities out there. You still are going to have dominant teams and schools both private and public due to certain advantages that they have.

It seems to me on the scale of things that public school should be concerned about that this issue should be very low on the priority list even for athletics. I would be a whole lot more worried about what is happening with the state budget and how that is going to effect the public financing of sports in the public school system.

I told you, he will not state a percentage!! It still is all in the coaching--in each and every sport in each and every private school. No facts, no history, just allusions.

If the subject is low on public school priorities, why the proposals from the NCK and Frontier Leagues.

Vince needs to go count the regional placings and state tournament banners flying in the KC area private school gyms. Then go count the banners in public school gyms--make it easy--just go to the near by 5A gyms. No comparison.

I did not say it was low their priorities list. It may very well be high on their priority list. I am just saying I think they should be more concerned if public funding of our public school sports programs is going to continue.