In other threads, comments have been made which suggest that private high schools enjoy a decided advantage over their public school counter-parts in sports or athletics.

I believe that many reasons account for the athletic success of private schools, vis-a-vie public schools, particularly the larger, urban, public schools.

Many of those students attending private high schools, or suburban schools in or near the larger cities, grew up together, and had prior associations or had some familiarity with each other pre-dating commencement of high school. Odds were decent that their parents may have known each other, or were at least familiar with a family name. Many, if not most, of these kids shared a common religion, socio-economic, cultural and racial background. These things create a sense of community, pride in their community, which seem to reflect itself in a heightened sense of team spirit, which tends to foster a "one-for all/all-for-0ne" attitude/mentality, which does wonders for this intangible we call "team chemistry" - so critical and/or important, particularly in any team endeavor.

It would not surprise me that a greater percentage of students attending private high schools, were raised in an in-tact family environment, which presumably allowed the parents to become more active in all facets of their children's lives, to include athletics, which I would think bodes well for some semblance of athletic success.

I wold also surmise that students attending private schools, in all likelihood, had a greater percentage of parents, who likely were more financially able to pay monies to help hone their child's budding athletic skills and talents, allow them to purchase the expensive gear and equipment, participate on elite travel teams, participate in the various camps and clinics which serve to increase their skills and talents.

It's not than any one of these factors can not be overcome individually and/or collectively given the right mix of school administrators, teachers, coaches, parents and students. But I think it's probably a little more difficult today. Many of the sports dynasties of years past (i.e. Lawrence football, McPherson bassketball, come to mind) involved teams hailing from communities with just one high school, which communities shared at least some of the afore-referenced attributes of a private or suburban high schools today (i.e. sense of community, shared values, etc...) Hutchinson serves as a good recent example. Would Hutchinson's athletic prowess been as spectacular during the past few years if their available talent pool had been shared with a newly constructed school?

Today, many of these communities have experienced growth, requiring construction of new high schools, which have resulted in spreading the athletic wealth, as it were.

On the other hand, as we all know success at the high school level just may be attributed to a school just being lucky enough to have a good run of great kids and athletes.

The whole notion of recruiting at the high school level is an interesting topic. I suppose recruitment, in this context, takes place when a school allows a student to attend their school for a discounted fee (or fee waiver), and/or admission criteria is ignored and/or relaxed so as to allow that student to attend their school.

On the one hand, it's understandable why a parent of a public school student would want his/her/their child to attend a private high school: students are more scholastically challenged, creating a better learning environment as evidenced by superior test scores across the academic board; the private schools retain the ability to exclude children they do not want and to expel unruly, disruptive children who serve as distractions to learning; parents may believe that a private school setting will serve to lessen the odds that their child will be exposed to some of the more negative and harmful influences perceived to pervade public school education; colleges may look more favorably upon a student from a private school. There are any number of plausible reasons for a parent seeking this option. Why begrudge a parent for doing this?

On the other hand, there is a perception out there among many, that more than a few of thse so-called scholastic opportunities offered by private schools are reserved for the athleticalfly gifted student, with an eye toward unfairly enhancing the athletic prowess and superiority of the private school. Obviously this breeds a good deal of jealously, resentment and bitterness and cries of unfairness from their competitors.

Since I have no personal or inside knowledge of any recruitment, I'd be hard-presseed to make any accusations, but I'd have to admit that I harbor some suspicions that benevolence and high-minded ideals do not serve as the sole criteria in the selection process of who and who does not merit special consideration for admission. call me a cynic, but it would not surprise me that a little extra weight may be given to the steller athlete.

For what it's worth, I do not however believe that this notion of recruiting is so pervasive and prevalent in private education, so as to decidedly account for the overall athletic success of private high schools; nor do I choose to believe that requiring private schools to compete at the next higher level is fair to them.

I'll look forward to other's comments and perceptions.

I agree with you that there can definitely be advantages to the one school in a community, but in Hutchison's case that was there also before their football success started. I attribute a major part of the Hutchison football turnaround to their head coach Randy Dreiling. Here is what I posted about that in another topic as a reply to another poster recently. Read the article that I have cited and I think you have to agree that they have a great coach who has to be given a lot of credit for that program's incredible success in recent years.

If a school gets moved up a classification because they are able to recruit, would KSHSAA basically be saying that it is all right to recruit since we're moving you up any way? If a school is going to be punished for something they are not doing, then they might as well do it, overtly, and at least have the punishment justified.

Bill, unfortunately the only way I could forsee that private schools could ever get away from KSHSAA policies would be to actually go completely separate from their state championships series. I don't care personally about the recruiting restriction but it would be nice to be able to get away from some of their restrictions. We could allow our coaches to be involved in the kids club teams, coach their athletes in the off season during the school year so they could be coaching freestyle/greco now, loosen up travel and other restrictions.

Svo69, I can tell you that Saint James had two very talented wrestlers request visits with the school and had full intentions of transferring. Both were very good young men and have shown very good academic scores. Neither of these were allowed to transfer. I have no insight or knowledge why they were turned down, but I defintely know they were not on the Saint James wrestling roster this year. Those added points at state and St. James would have easily moved from an 8th place finish to no less than 4th. My point to that real life scenerio is to soften what some think is simply an "open door" policy at the private schools as long as you are a talented athlete. I know at SJA that is simply a myth. I have seen that proven wrong first hand.

When we visited the school, they never once mentioned Taylor's wrestling ability. They reviewed his transcripts, told us their academic expectations, and asked both Taylor and his mother and myself alot of questions about our academic outlook and goals. I am not completely sure that they knew about his athletic skills at all. I'm positive coach Medina knew, but not the admissions board.

You have to realize, I was not for this move before visiting the school. This was primarily a move my wife and son wanted to make. After visiting the school and the enrolment counselor I could feel myself changing positions. One of the very last things she said to us before leaving was that St. James had a very different view for their future than most schools. She said their goal was NOT to see how many students they could send on to college; but to see that every student that went on to college would also graduate from college and that was the most important number to them.

As an individual that completed 3 years of college and did not finish, that struck me very close to home. I thought it was outstanding that they considered themselves a college prep school who's goal was not just to get students in - but to get students graduated from college.

What helped us get Taylor into St. James as a Sophmore and not starting with the school immediately as a Freshman? I'm not completely sure, but I can guarantee it was NOT because he was a recruited athlete. I would like to credit it as my great "interview" skills, but more likely it may have had something to do with the fact he also attended Sacred Heart Catholic School in Colby in grades K-5.

Mr. Nowak:

I labor under no delusions that "coaching" plays a significant role in the success of any athletic program. There are innumerable examples of this - state wide. Your examples are exemplary and one would be hard-pressed to argue with you, in these regards.

But, at the high school level, I choose to believe that it is still the "Jimmie & Joe's" who carry the day (to a coveted state championship).

I hasten to add that the familiarity with an ultra-successful coach (and his "program") hastens the rise of that particular coaches program.

You may remember a football coach named Tom Young (a highly respected, coveted, football coach at Derby - I've never heard anybody utter an uncomplimentary remark about him or his coaching abilities, or the progarm he left behind at Derby).

In the last few years he went winless after leaving Derby, and he has now righted matters and recently competed for a state championship. Coach Young is the perfect example of your thesis. He will succeed!!!

It may well be that these steller athletes gravitate toward these proven programs (i.e. proven winners) or, then again, it could, then again, be the proverbial luck of the draw... (i.e. the local "pipeline" spillith over....)

or that these steller athletes did whatever they could do to be apart of this successful program - and bought into the coaches mind-set.

It's not unheard of, and it makes alot of practical sense.

I guess my point is that I agree whole-heartedly with you, coaching "can" make alot of difference...

What I would like to see, I have no time to generate the stats, is an accounting of the BIG 5 state championships. Football, Basketball, Baseball, Wrestling and Track. Then break it out by boys and girls. Is there still a private school disparity? I don't think you will find one in the boys big 5.

i have personal knowledge of recruiting. it happens, how much i don't know, but it happens. no i don't think they mention it too much in interviews.

HEADUP, Please give your definition of recruiting since you have so much "inside" knowledge, but no backbone for posting the specifics?

I hope the private sector has a good year every year. Without
private there is no public.

i know it happened at kapaun and miege (they were sanctioned in the late 80's). like i said i don't know how much it happens, but it DOES.

Headup, are you talking about public or private schools?

I am all for removing the private schools from KSHSAA if I can keep all of my taxes that go to public education and all of the rest of us as well. See what that will do to this arguement when public school administrators start losing their jobs.

Or to the contrary, when the Bishop closes all the parochial schools and the State has to fund the aditional students. Don't think that isn't a posibility as Bishop Carrol was going to do when they tried "jacking" with him with some severe resrictions several years back. I hate to see it come to that but can only take so much crap before you have to do what has to be done. Of course, it won't effect me or my grandchildren because they go to public schools. Basicly, if the Bishop did that, you would send them to public schools and then re-educate them at home at night if your children are going to a public school like most in the big cities.

Will,

Once again, I doubt you want to be bothered by the facts, but here you go:

Boys Sports

Baseball-- Current 2A and 4A Champs. Private schools have won both of these divisions for SEVEN years in a row. Since there are no 6A schools and there is no 1A baseball, private schools have won at least 50% of the divisions they compete in for the last seven years. Some years it's been 75%.

Football--Current 4A and 3A Champs along with 4A runner up (Hayden). STA and Carroll also were semifinalist teams in 5A. I'm not sure to what extent there are private schools in the 8 man divisions. I don't think any compete in 8man II. Regardless, it's safe to say that 2 champs is statistically more than to be expected.

Basketball--5A Champs, 3A Champs and 2A state champs. Also 2A runner up and 2A third place teams. State champs in 60% of the divisions they compete in.

Wrestling--You are not very good wrestlers. No current team champions. However, since 2005 there have been 5 private teams champions out of the 24 total team champions which is still 21%. Not as bad as the other major sports, but still more than you would expect from 8% of the schools.

Track--Apparently you guys are slow. You haven't won a team title since Carroll in 05. It's probably attributable to poor coaching. The public schools have really good coaches, they make the kids run really fast.

There you go. I think if you look at it objectively you must admit there is disparity. I'm not certain, but I would guess it is the same or worse in the girls division as I would replace wrestling with volleyball where private schools won 3 of 5 classifications.

The monopoly of public education is over.
Virtual or Online school opportunities are rising. I believe a student only has to attend one class at the brick location to be eligible for athletic participation.

That part of Cokely's taxes , and all the private schools tax payers, that go to public education is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the total bill for public education. To lose those taxes from the base would have minimal if no affect.

The money private schools and private school parents would have to pay to travel out of state for games/matches would, I think, equal or exceed what they are paying in school taxes. These increased cost, plus tuition and fees, can be expected to force many private school patrons to relook attending the private school versus attending their neighborhood public school. Cokely needs to seriously look at what he is willing to accept or propose.

He has not, nor do I think he will, address the facts, stats as he called them, of the current list of state champions. If he did address the issue, stats, he would have to defend them. Something very hard to do without without getting irrational.

Facts (stats). Just the facts (stats) mam!

Here are the stats I posted at 10:15 this AM on the forum "Somebody get Cokely a sedative". Perhaps Cokel has not yet looked at them. Same stats/ info posted by Windjammer at 11:08 Am today on this forum.

Copied:

Here again are some stats on state championships. I looked only at the KSHSAA listing of Current State Champions—softball and baseball stats are from last year 08/09—no 09/10 champs yet in these two sports. Did not include the country club sports---tennis, swimming, golf, or gymnastics. Did not include wrestling—a big sport-but primarily an individual sport—four or five wrestlers can win a team title- or a high team placing. Stats do not include 6A—no 6A private schools.

Football: two of four possible class champs (4a and 3A) 50%

Boys Basket ball: three of five champs(5A, 4A, 2A)—60%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Girls Basketball: one of five champs (3A)-20%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Baseball: two of four champs (4A and 21A) -–50%

Softball: zero of four champs-- two 3rds and one 4th

Volleyball: three of four champs (5A, 4A, 321A) –75% --plus three 2nds.

Boys Soccer: two of two champs (5A and 4321A) -100% --plus two 2nds

Girls Soccer: one of one champs (54321A) -100% --plus 2nd, 3rd, and 4th

I count 14 (48 percent) out of a possible 29 state championships in these major sports won by private schools . This is an extraordinary number when only 6 percent of the schools are private.

I want the stats for the last 20 years not just a snapshot. There are cycles. In 5A in the 90's a private school NEVER made it to the state finals in football and it the 80's only Kapaun made a significant impact and they were sanctioned for actually violating KSHSAA rules.

So you want to throw out 6A just because there are no 6A private schools right now even though they are a part of the study group, that is Kansas high school athletes. If the ridiculous proposal is put into place then there will be plenty when the shuffle begins so I believe their state championships have to be considered when figuring percentages.

When Lawrence high was the by far the biggest school in the state and won football EVERY year where were all of you whiners then????

I am ready to chalk this up to sore losers and the continued pussification of America by public school administrators. Speaking of public school administrators, our local school district, in light of the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue has decided we should have TWO superintendants and a district wide AD to hold the hands of the two we have for the high schools and the additional middle school part time AD's. Some whiny woman over in Shawnee got elected to the schoolboard and got pissed bc her kids weren't getting to play so she went on a mission to clean out all of the head coaches and the AD. I think the principal was felled by her axe as well. I would like to have my tax dollars back and pay to play wherever I wanted Contrarian. At least I would have some say in how my dollars were getting spent!!! Heck, I don't think we need more than one AD let alone 6 in our little old school district!! The public schools are laden with an enormous burden of overhead caused by inefficiency. Why aren't we spending our energy making our system more effective from a cost perspective? Over 100 schools with a little more than 5,000 students in the top three grades??? That is ridiculous, way more so than private schools CURRENTLY winning more than Windy's determined fair share of championships.

HEADUP --- You are so full of $#!++ (baloney).

To Start with tuition for SMC is FREE(for tithing parishioners). So what exactly where they or are they waving? If said recruits aren't parishioners there is a small fee. But untill someone proves otherwise, I'm going to have to call your bluff and say you're lying about any pass on tuition for athletic talent.

Now I am going to challenge you to prove me wrong so I can publicly apologize to you. Give me your name, the coach-contact person-administrator that offered a "pass", and any other pertinent information so we can get to the truth. Trust me, I have the contacts to and am more than willing to follow up on this.

Also in your spare time you might check out SMC roster and see how many 2nd and 3rd generation students fill the lineup. Its tuff to call it recruiting when your parents and your parents parents all went to the same school.

**side note** With Colgans baseball teams over the last several yrs, it really wouldn't matter if they were 2A, 3A, or 4A. So how would it make the world better to beat down TMP's football team?

Duane Wuthnow
Salina, Kansas - Proud parent of two student athletes at SALINA SACRED HEART JUNIOR/SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL, home to 31 (thirty-one) state chapionship banners!!

**side note #2** You must be one heck of an athlete, because my kids are pretty d@%% good, and we still pay full tuition. (tuition at SHHS is far from free)