Speaking about money and the classification expansion.

Would the KSHSAA organization benefit from an expansion of the classification system? If there are more state tournaments will there be more revenue? Do you think only the “members” are for expansion and none of the staff?

KSHSAA tends to keep a higher percentage of postseason gate receipts — 70 percent, a revenue stream that provides almost 90 percent of the Association’s nearly $4 million operating budget

Gate receipts provide $3,600,000 (90% of budget) in revenue $400,000 from other sources.
More games more gate receipts.

40 percent (or $1.6 million is spent on a staff compensation) of the 4 million budget.

Rough estimates on staff compensation:

13 support staff treated equally at $50,000 = $650,000 in staff compensation/wages

7 upper management treated equally at $135,714 = $950,000 in compensation/wages

$950,000 + $650,000 = $1,600,000

$4,000,000 - $1,600,000 = $2,400,000

$2,400,000 for operations, their should not be any rent (paying off bonds on new building), utilitites, phones, rent and insurance for regional’s, sub state, state tournaments, awards, meetings and travel expenses, food and entertainment, lodging, office supplies and computer upgrades, website updates, forms, monthly financial reports, attorney fees, etc

Moreover, the KSHSAA maintains a $5.5 million cash reserve, more than any other state surveyed.

A $2 million reserve (or 6 month reserve) should be plenty for a nonprofit organization.
Not $5.5 million that looks like several golden parachutes.

That post is why Smokey is a valued member of our wrestling community!

It would be nice if they put these meetings on youtube or flowrestling. I'll have to check but I think the Thursday meeting is a new date. An agenda would be helpful so people had an opportunity to know when they plan to discuss the "2 proposals" on what dates and in what room - Hall of Fame room or some other room?????

NEXT MEETING
The next regularly scheduled meeting will be held as follows:
Thursday, April 22, 2010
10 a.m. – 5 p.m.
Friday, April 23, 2010
8:30 a.m. – 2 p.m.
The Board of Directors’ meeting will begin on Friday evening,
April 23 at 4 p.m., with hearings and discussion only. Final
action and 2010-11 Executive Board elections will take place
on Saturday, April 24 beginning at 9 a.m.
The first meeting of the 2010-11 Executive Board will be held
Saturday morning immediately following adjournment of the
Board of Director’s meeting. The 2010-11 Executive Board will
meet downstairs in the Hall of Fame Room for election of
officers and organizational business.
Gary Musselman
Executive Director


TWO LEAGUES PRESENT PUBLICPRIVATE
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR
DISCUSSION
Principal Mike Adams of Clay Center Community High School,
met with the Executive Board to present a proposal from the
schools of the North Central Kansas League. The proposal
would seek to change the classification of private or parochial
schools by having them moved up one classification in their
assignment following completion of the annual classification
of schools.
Principal Dale Sample of Eudora High School, Principal Rick
Johnson of Ottawa High School, Principal Dave Tappen of
Louisburg High School, and Principal Shaun Moseman of Baldwin
High School, appeared on behalf of the Frontier League
to discuss a proposal they had submitted for discussion by the
Board of Directors. The proposal from the Frontier League seeks
to change the classification of senior high schools by dividing
them into eight classes: 6A, 5A, 4A Division I, 4A Division II,
3A, 2A, 1A, and an All-Private classification.
The proposals from both leagues are printed in their entirety
on the Board of Directors Agenda for April 23-24, 2010. This
document was mailed to all member schools and is posted on the
KSHSAA webpage under the sub-heading of ‘Current Topics’.
During the discussion, all parties were reminded KSHSAA
Bylaw Article XII, Section 4, Classification of Senior
High Schools, requires proposals seeking to modify the classification
system be initiated through a petitioning process.
Representatives of both leagues acknowledged petitioning had
not taken place and their intention was to have the Board of
Directors begin discussion of the proposals on their merits. It
is understood the Board of Directors may not take final action
on either proposal at their April 23rd meeting.

Proposal by the Frontier League by adding 2 new classifications could generate approximately another $1.2 million in gate receipts from post season activities (cut that 1.2 million in
half if the private schools get seperated and decide to run their
own activities). Currently all Member dues have been reduced with all the statewide budget slashing going on at school
districts. So if the private schools get kicked into their own division - and decide to go it alone. The KSHSAA would lose those
private school member fees and the gate receipts that those schools currently bring to the budget. I do not know how many fans the private schools bring to the events but it is at least the average of what other schools bring.

Aren't we glad they have such a large reserve fund? If only our previous legislators had been as responsible!

Loss of Revenue to the KSHSAA if P/P high schools were to go on their own:

I estimate it to be $5400/$10,800: 27 High Schools x $200 per school in membership fees = $5400. However, officially, the membership fee is $400 per year per high school, but the KSHSAA halved it this year and next, so could be as high as $10,800 when reinstated.

Doubt there would be much, if any, loss of revenue in state playoffs as there will be schools qualify for post-season who would not have otherwise.

I don't think losing $5400 or $10,800 if the P/P schools were to choose to go on their own would cause the KSHSAA to shutter its windows.

On the other hand, if the P/P schools went on their own they would have to secure their own catastrophic injury insurance, probably at a much higher premium. P/P schools would find it difficult to schedule games with KSHSAA schools if no uniform system of eligibility or season of sport was adopted by the P/P schools and could/would incur more travel cost.

For the most part, other KSHSAA competitive NON-ATHLETICE activities such forensics, debate, music and scholars' bowl would not be as extensively available to the students in P/P schools except at greater cost and travel. The KSHSAA oversees and sponsors a LOT MORE than just athletics. In fact, the first "A" in KSHSAA does not stand for Athletics, it is for Activities.

IMO P/P schools dropping out of the KSHSAA would be the classic "cut off nose to spite face" move. I believe the 27 P/P schools get a lot more from being members of the KSHSAA than the KSHSAA and its other 300+ member schools would lose if they were to go on their own.

I think the proposal to split 4A into two classifications FOR FOOTBALL will receive some serious consideration.

IMO, the proposal to put P/P schools in their own classification is DOA. I think adopting a proposal which automatically "bumps up" the P/P schools one classification is, at best, extremely remote. I do think there will be some serious talk and study of multipliers for P/P enrollment, but believe its future adoption to be 50-50 at best. Keep in mind I am speaking from an area of the state that has very, very few P/P high schools (just one, TMP, that is a KSHSAA Member?) so my "world view" about possible changes by the KSHSAA is no doubt stilted.

If you use an insurance company similar to what USA Wrestling uses it would be about $35 per student/athlete or non-student/activity person per year. Catastrophic injury insurance - What does this cover now and up to how much per student athlete/or activity participant - about $1,000,000. Parents could opt out I imagine if they already have good coverage. Unless it were required by a new governing body. KSHSAA could potentially lose the revenue from gate fees and annual fees from the one proposed division. Although they would potentially have 1 more classification. It all boils down to how many fans each school brings to games and what those gate fees collected are and what percentage the KSHSAA keeps.

"cut off nose to spite face"
IMO - that is what the proposers are saying to the Private Schools - you should have your own division we do not want to compete against those schools. But the KSHSAA would like to help set up several tournaments with your volunteers and we will take 70 percent - how does that sound.

Using the most recent numbers available.

Currently, On average with a $4,000,000 budget divided by 300 schools = $13,333.33 on average each school helps the KSHSAA budget.

Some schools bring more fans than others so I just used averages.

So if there were fewer schools and families involved and they made more classifications to raise more money - I am having a tough time figuring out the motives here. The discussion is healthy - but could someone explain to me the benefit of diluting the competition.

I read the audit of KSHSAA last year and thought it raised a lot of questions. The salaries for exec staff seemed very high for one. I also did not think it went into enough detail. I believe Smokey hit at something Will has been kind of stating for a while, but not real clearly - and that is the unholy alliance between KSHSAA and coaches. KSHSAA takes most of the gate from playoff events, so they are for any expansion. The coaches also benefit from the expansion. If I am right, 50% of the football coaches get to say 'I took the team to the state playoffs this year'. So any expansion of the playoff system will benefit both groups as coaches get to claim more success. Only the fan is left in the dark. Most of them do not know how many teams make the playoffs. And, that is what this whole proposal is about, some coaches out there decided it was easier to get to state if they cut the odds in half again or by eliminating competition. Why work harder, just change the rules.

On the NCAA expanding the NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament to 96 teams:

“I think it’s a foregone conclusion that that’s going to happen,” he said, although coaches should be careful not to rely on just “making the tournament” for job security. “Coaches think we’re dumb,” Perkins said, of guys who think being the 94th or 95th team in is golden. “That’s not going to save your job.”

From an interview with KU athletic director Lew Perkins in the Lawrence Journal World a few days ago. I am a huge KU fan, but not so much a fan of AD Lew Perkins.

In the NBA (which I don't care much for either), 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. In MLB, only 8 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Thanks to District play being introduced in football way back, we went 1-5 during the season and swept our District to make the State playoffs at 4-5 (class 4A). Went on to lose in the first round to Norton by a couple of touch downs on a freagan cold night.

My point is, to be the best at 4A means a lot. To make it to State in 4A means a lot (even if you are a mediocre 4-5 football team that just happened to jell at the right time of the year). If 4A is split, being a State Champion will mean less, and making it to State will mean even less.

Off to another sport, my nephew's baseball team (Hayden High) won the 4A State Championship in baseball last year. A majority of that team had played together since they were probably nine years of age. They beat KC Ward who had won six straight State Championships, and had beaten them the two previous years at State. From what my brother has told me, and he should know since he coached those youngsters back when they were 9-14 years old, there wasn't any recruiting involved on that squad. It was just a bunch of kids that had played together a long time and learned to play the game the right way.

ReDPloyd. Think you just added to the reason for the issue/prosals, etc.

Of the 64 4A schools, only four are private (4/64=1/16=6+%). In last year's state baseball tournament, two of the four semifinal teams (25%) were private private schools. Hayden was the champ and Ward took third. The year previous you said Ward was the champ and beat Hayden--that again signifies 2 of the four semifinalists were private schools. You then go on to say that Ward had been the champ for the previous five years (a Ward run of 6 straight championships in BB). Was Hayden in the state tournament in those other years--can't determine since KSHSAA online brackets show only the current year. Did Hayden make the state tournament those other years--the final 8. Some where in there I bet they did.

So, for at least two years 100% of the champs were private schools, and 50% of the semifinalists were private. The previous five year 100% of the champs was a private school, and we can not determine with the information readily availbe if there were other private schools in the tournaments. Thats two consecutive 100% and 50%, and a minimal five year run of 100%. Pretty good when only 6% of the total number of schools are private.

Does there need to be any additional explanation of the issue.

HELP! Question for anyone--Is the KSHSAA rule still in effect that limits the number of high school "squad" players on an off season sports teams, for example, 6 of 11 on a clubb soccer team. Have looked the the KSHSAA and can not find it. This rule went in in about 1995. -If still a rule, in my opinion, the worst rule in the KSHSAA book? If not the direct cause of the current mess, this rule certainly exacerbates the situation--especially in small town Kansas. If it is still a rule I will explain in a later comment

Found the "Practice and Participation" "squad" rules. Not one rule, but a rule laid out in the General Rules for each individual field sport, i.e.: BB, BB, FB, VB, soccer.

Will explain why this is a bad rule later, especially for small towns, in the "KSHSAA Private and Parochial School Sports forum Topic.

Have to go to a middle school soccer game this AM. There are few if no off season sports (club or recreational) for middle and high school age kids in KC-especially for a growing Hispanic population. In KCKS HS soccer is 95+%% Hispanic. So, USD 500 two years ago started a middle school socer program--Great. Doesn't cost much, every MS fields a big team, and what I think is significant is that it brought a lot of inner city white, black, and Asian kids into the sport. Besides, USD 500 has none of the country club sports that other schools spend money on.

Ward actually took 4th!

Thanks for the correction.

Way out in small town Colby, what is yhat 15 miles from either Goodland or Oakley along I-70--don't now how far from other small towns, has the "practice and Participation' rule effected HS sports and the ability to put off season club, AAU, etc teans together. It surely did in Leavenworth and Lansing. Explain later. Would not like to hear you just ignored the rule--think some do.

Contrarian,

My two posts, just for clarification, were meant to back private schools, and not back splitting 4A into two 4As. Just for clarification.

Maybe so, but your use of the baseball championships draws attention to why the split of 4A, the multiplier, bump a class, or separate the private schools is being proposed!

Was something you may not want to have highlighted!

Everyone needs to read the posts under the 6A and 5A Moving forum.

Not going Back to the Intrust.

Just read the article in the Wichita Eagle covering the Public/ Private school issue. I find it interesting that the Board had a rep from Missouri discuss the multiplier they implemented in 2002. Prior to the multiplier, private schools won 33.2% of championships the prior 10 years. Then the following 5 years with the multiplier, the private schools have won 33% the last 5 years.

And that is what I have thought and predict is what would happen in Kansas too if we do the multiplier. I just don't believe it would make that big of a difference in the number of state titles of some of these teams like the Aquinas soccer team that have caused the big discrepancy. The teams with the long term good coaches with a lot of state titles are going to keep winning the state titles or would still have won a lot of state titles at a higher classification. Aquinas soccer did win in 6A and 5A, just like the Hutchison football team also won state titles in 6A and 5A. The great teams have the great long term good coaching and tradition. What it will really hurt is the majority of the private school teams that do not have the same type of success records as the Aquinas soccer teams, the Miege girls basketball and volleyball teams.

WICHITA EAGLE ARTICLE 18 April 2010

Public-private classification dilemma a common issue among high school associations
Other states have developed methods to compensate for private schools' successes; Kansas officials have spoken with Missouri about its system.


Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/04/18/1273988/public-private-dilemma-a-common.html#ixzz0lUFmSN4p


Fairness in athletic competition between public and private schools has been talked about for years in Kansas high school circles. Two proposals last month seeking to make private schools compete in higher or separate classifications were warning flares to the rest of the state.

The board of directors for the Kansas State High School Activities Association, the state's governing body for high school sports, will meet in Topeka late this week to talk about — but probably not act on — the ideas.

The association's executive board, meanwhile, has already investigated a third option — multiplying private school's enrollment by a pre-determined figure to determine classifications.

Change may be years down the road, but the talk is getting serious.

"Our intent is to get the discussion going on how do we resolve the issue that a lot of members have with the perception, right or wrong, that private schools have an advantage," said Clay Center principal Mike Adams, a board of directors member who helped draft one proposal to move the 26 private schools up a class. Another is splitting private schools into their own postseason division.

The multiplier system

In March, executive director Kerwin Urhahn of the Missouri State High School Activities Association talked to the KSHSAA's executive board about the private-public school issue.

"We recognized that we have people that have gone through the process before in a neighboring state," said Bill Faflick, the City League director and executive board member. "We wanted him to come in and share some of his insights as to what they did."

Urhahn spoke for more than an hour and offered some of the hurdles Missouri faced, as well as school response after the 1.35 multiplier was put in place.

"I think there could be some legitimacy to the multiplier," said DeSoto principal David Morford, who is on the executive board and helped write the proposal to split private schools into their own classification.

Bishop Carroll athletic director Larry Dostert doesn't want to see change to the current system but sees the multiplier as a better option.

"If it was forced on us, the multiplier I could live with. I think we can compete at the 6A level," Dostert said. "I think it would be extremely unfair to eliminate us from postseason with the public schools."

Missouri adopted the 1.35 multiplier in 2002 primarily because many public schools felt they weren't on an even playing field with private schools. In the previous 10 years before the multiplier, private schools won 33.2 percent of 581 titles. Private schools make up 12 percent of the association's membership.

"What it did was (it) shifted non-public schools into larger classes," Urhahn said.

For large private schools such as Christian Brothers College High outside St. Louis, little has changed. But for Helias High in Jefferson City, change has been drastic.

"We had 32 state championships (in multiple sports) through the 1980s and '90s," said Chris Hentges, Helias' football coach. "We had more than any team in the state. When the multiplier came in the early 2000s, we've only won one state championship. There's no school that has been affected the way that we have."

The multiplier frustrates Helias president Didier Aur, especially because in baseball, softball and volleyball, Helias plays against schools three times its size.

"It's something that's unfair," Aur said."... Have we accepted it? Grudgingly, yes. There's absolutely nothing we can do about it."

Under this year's enrollment figures, a 1.35 multiplier in Kansas would move Carroll from Class 5A to 6A and Collegiate and Independent from 3A to 4A, but Kapaun Mount Carmel would remain in 5A and Wichita Trinity would remain in 4A.

A good option?

Not all think the multiplier is the answer, including Douglass athletic director Scott Dunham, who prefers separate classes for private schools.

"I think there are impacts and effects with it that I don't know that we could see immediately," Dunham said. "I think with the multiplier some of the issues and concerns that they have in terms of fairness and equity might still be there."

The multiplier system doesn't necessarily do everything its proponents hope for.

A multiplier system didn't change the number of private-school champions in Missouri. Private schools won 33.2 percent of the state titles in the five years before the multiplier was enacted, 33 percent in the five years after.

Since the change, the issues between private and public schools have lessened, Urhahn said. He's been told by a committee made up of members of private and public schools that the issue isn't really discussed anymore.

"It's what I call a cosmetic fix," said Ralph Swearngin, executive director of the Georgia High School Association, about a multiplier system. "A lot of people like that something has been done, but when you analyze, you realize there's not much substance there."

That was true in Georgia. Georgia went to a multiplier system in 2000, but dropped it before the 2006-07 school year because the same schools continued to win.

Faflick, who oversees a league with seven public schools and two parochial high schools in the City League, thinks all KSHSAA schools should be treated the same. He said a multiplier doesn't address all factors.

"Do you put in a multiplier for programs where the coaches have had longevity for more than 10 years? Do you put in a multiplier for schools that have no parent participation?" Faflick said. "Private and public is just one factor. Do you put in a multiplier for urban vs. rural? I don't know why that one issue is one that's being identified. I think it's much more complex than just public/private.... All of those things impact winning championships."

Headed for court?

If the KSHSAA and its member schools vote to change the bylaws regarding private schools, the association could face a lawsuit. The Missouri and Illinois associations were sued shortly after going to a multiplier.

Missouri's 1.35 multiplier was initially arbitrary, but the MSHSAA won its case because it found that 35 percent of students in public schools didn't participate in extracurricular activities. Private schools typically are near 100-percent participation because schools insist on it.

Thirty-nine private schools immediately sued the Illinois High School Association in 2005 when a 1.65 multiplier was enacted by its board of directors. The association asked member schools to approve it, which they did by a 5-1 margin.

Gary Musselman, the KSHSAA's executive director, said fear of a lawsuit regarding private school classification won't halt possible change.

"The guiding thought has to be doing the right thing and what the majority of the membership supports, whatever that might do," Musselman said. "If lawsuits arise then you have to deal with them. Nobody wants to be spending time and money on lawsuits when you can be spending them on programs that you're conducting for your students."



Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/04/18/1273988/public-private-dilemma-a-common.html#ixzz0lUCygvzu