I am still waiting for Will, Mike or Kathy Juby to produce numbers by age group by year for the State of Kansas. Is it possible we are having increased numbers at a younger age and losing numbers 15 and older. If so why? How can we be increasing numbers on the lower end of this organization and losing numbers over 15 years and older. We had a slight spike in the 2009/2010 numbers over the 2008/09 numbers of 15 years old. But we added kids who were 17, 18, & 19 for the High School Division last year. We did not have those kids in years 2008/09 and going back. Will is a business man - Don't you normally get more than 1 bid or proposal before endorsing a project or excepting the bid. The only data I am getting is to large of brackets for an unoffical open tournament. People are driving to far, 2,000 kids in which only 500 (25%) participate in the unoffical open tournament - for the most part Novice kids with 1 to 2 years exeperience. What about the other Novice kids maybe 8 or 9 years old (with 1 to 2 years experience) who pay their fees but do not get a chance or opportunity to compete against kids of their own ability. Some will say throw them in with the open kids and see what happens - is that fair??????????? Not really and a bad job by us (the state organization as a whole)in developing them prior to high school if we throw a 1st year 9 year old up against a 10 year old who is a 20 time state/national/world champ.

windjammer
Member

Registered: January, 24 2005
Posts: 644

I do know that 50% of the 2004 six and under STATE CHAMPIONS from Ottawa did not compete at this years kids state championship. I did the math. In 5 years, one half have gone from state champs to not even there.

Why is this such a big deal??? I say let them have it... there season is still short...and numbers prove they enjoy it..look at Ottawa numbers 64 man brackets...this will allow it to be a true State 6u championship...No one is forcing any of them to wrestle the qualifiers....but you know they will!!!! Got my vote.

John Johnson
Member

Registered: February, 26 2006
Posts: 175
Loc: Easton I believe the issue of 6 and under wrestlers and how we treat them is very important, but I believe including them at state is not the answer. As a Saturday morning coach finding something to say to the 6 and under who just lost his 2nd straight match and is going home with his/her parents by 10:00 am, with nothing to show is tough. As such, I believe the comments from Chertow are appropriate. Getting 'all' of these kids to have fun and have success and teaching them the fundamentals is what will keep our sport full of participants. I really liked the way Paola and Park Hill kept most of the 6 and 8 u's in 4 man round robins with 4 medals. Most 5 and 6 year olds like getting a medal even if they lose all their matches. Mom and dad, who may be new to the sport, will be happier and more likely to keep their kid in the sport. I believe the answer to keeping 6 u's participating in the sport is to make it less competitive for them, not more. Have round robins for them, not 8 man brackets. I believe we should eliminate 8 and 16 man brackets for 6 u's at all but select tournaments. Yes, there are some 6 u's who can compete at a high level, and these tournaments will give them that, but the rest just need to learn. But Jeff hit on an important point, these kids are a big group and we need them. We lose way too many.

The Johnson County Kids Classic had 171 6U wrestlers in it last year. Isn't that your tournaments? Don't some of those funds go to STA Wrestling Club? Did you give all of them medals and brackets and not keep score?

Isn't that your tournaments? No s required

Could you please provide the data I have requested?

Yes it is a joint multi-club tournament with many volunteers - easy question next. Olathe East and STA have worked jointly for many many years providing opportunities. No qualifier either at our tournament and we do provide an opportunity. We have done a novice and and open division for 6 & under - I have hoped there is only one division for that age group - but because SOME 6 & under parents complain one way or another to much experience - so and so should be open and not novice. Normally more 6&U sign up for the Novice division at that age group. Could you provide the data I have requested? I have not got it yet. Will, are you suggesting the state body regulate who has a tournaments and when? STA wrestling club isn't that the one you keep bashing. I have 5 and 6 year olds in our club. I just do not think they need a state tournament and/or a state tournament series. That is made clear to the parents at the parent meeting at the beginning of the year. At that point if they disagree with the club philosophy - they get a full refund - except the card cost. There are normally 5 or 6 novice tournaments on our schedule that have 6 & under opportuntires (that can be about 12-20 matches - plenty). Then their are 8 or 9 open tournaments (20-30 matches - plenty) with 6 & under in which they may continue. I normally suggest a maximum of 4 to 6 tournaments for 6 & unders. 1st year six and unders I normally suggest maybe 2 - 4 tournaments. 2nd year six and unders maybe 3 to 5 tournaments. Some of our kids 6&U do not go toany tournaments, I have had kids 11 years old practice all year and not go to any tournaments. I have had 13 year olds miss a year (after 4 years of tournaments) and come back in high school and place very high in HS state and even a finalist on a couple of State HS Championship teams. NO six and under state tournament is not on our schedule - I will not go. We have had certified coaches (very few) from our club take their own kids - against my wishes. I do not like when parents coach their own kids at tournaments. We have an unwritten rule among our coaches to try and stay out of their childs corner of during tournament matches - the refs normally like it better also. I encourage them to work with their kids in practice - but I suggest strongly they do not coach them in tournaments - and no when to back off.

You have the same access to data as I have. I have supplied all of the data necessary to substantiate the support of the proposal.

Is this your data for your proposal.


2009/10 data
A possible 2,085 (made up of primarily 1st and 2nd year wrestlers) 22.7% of the participants get their own stand alone state tournament. Of that approximately 500 (25% of their age group) or only 5.4% of the total state number 9,174 of participants have gone to the unofficial state tournament.

Each district will host an estimated 125 kids. Of that a possible 76 kids in 19 weights in each district will move on to state. If all 19 of the brackets are full that would leave 304 kids in the running for a state championship at 6 & under.
How come the other 77.3% or 7,089 have different format and longer season.

I just hope we can limit the debate at the state meeting. I believe everyone already knows how they intend to vote so there is no sense in spending a lot of time on passionate pleas one way or another.

Mine will be extremely limited. I will NOT be at the meeting. We continue to schedule the meeting in conflict with several major, national events. I am accompanying a group of Kansas and Missouri wrestlers to Greensboro, NC to Super 32. Our club is sending a van load of wrestlers to Waterloo, IA to Preseason Nationals, a USA Wrestling event. This meeting should have been held this past weekend before all of these tournaments start.

"I will NOT be at the meeting."
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

I see how you do business.
Throw out a propsal and leave town - and let everyone else deal with it. You have known about the proposal how long? We (the rest of the state body/organization/and clubs) just find out - pretty much last week. Some people ask a few questions to the people who proposed and endorsed the proposal and it is like pulling teeth. Funny way to conduct business and answers questions about a proposal.

Because they are older and can handle a longer season. Would you rather they be included and have an extended season? Personally I would like to see the 8U season shortened also.

Vote YES for 6 & Under State.

Sean,

To be clear...

Are you really asking for a definitive answer as to why our 15 and older numbers are dropping? (albeit last years rose).

You are surprised that the SFGD doesn't know the answer? Does anyone know the real answer? There could be hundreds of reasons. Most of those would not include 6U wrestling. That study would involve asking 15-18 year olds if 6U was the reason that they quit. You have called that a "small data request".

Crazy...

Just a quick word of caution on the idea that last year's numbers rose in the 15 and older category.....those numbers are more than likely swayed because it was the first year we had the high school division and didn't stop at 16U. Not sure but think that may have some impact on the small increase.

Let's take a look at what we are talking about....kids wrestling or high school wrestling. Most high school wrestlers have been to kids state or had a shot at it. Why are we trying to deny our 6u from having their time. Personally I would rather we get rid of the high school division and let the little guys in. this is KIDS wrestling. 6u shorter periods, and would, for the most part get great support. Imo. they are getting cut out because coaches are making the call for them. Let the kids and the parents decide, whether they want to continue or not.

There are 75 District 1 Clubs, 45 District 2 Clubs, 41 District 3 Clubs, and 36 District 4 Clubs. That is a total of 197 Clubs. I believe 120 Clubs will do the right thing and support this proposal.

I am happy to answer any and all questions about the proposal. I am as transparent as it gets. I cannot provide you any information that I don't possess. Please email me or call me if you have any questions or concerns. Smokey has provided my contact information but it has always been available on the Directors tab to your right.

VOTE YES

We have a solid proposal and a great opportunity worked out with the Salina Bicentennial Center to give the little guys their own day in the limelight. Everyone who feels strongly has weighed in on one message stream or another. Hopefully this can move straight to a vote on Sunday without an emotional outburst from either side. We frequently forget that everyone who reads and posts on this forum have at least one thing in common, a PASSION for wrestling! We should not become counterproductive within our own ranks. We will accomplish far more together than we ever will battling against each other. A YES vote is a vote for change and without change there can be no improvement.