Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173811
10/26/10 02:26 PM
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Chief Renegade
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Wow. A 39% increase in the 16U/HS division last year!
Eric Johnson
Acts 4:12
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Chief Renegade]
#173813
10/26/10 03:12 PM
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smokeycabin
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Is that 39% increase - ??
15-18 plus years old compared to 15 & 16 year olds? If so not exactly apples and apples.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: smokeycabin]
#173819
10/26/10 05:39 PM
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smokeycabin
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http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspxBest Practices for Improving the Recruitment & Retention of Student Wrestlers (ages 6 through 18) Overview: While we have never, in the history of wrestling, had more students competing at the youth levels, we’ve also never had more forfeits at the high school level. Approximately 25% of all individual dual meet matches at the high school level are forfeits. An argument could be made to solve the challenge by eliminating weight classes at the high school level. But remember, for every weight class we eliminate, we eliminate about 10,000 opportunities for young aspiring student-wrestlers (10,000 varsity and 10,000 future varsity). The NWCA is committed to increasing the number of student-wrestlers at all levels. We command the absolute belief that the students are where they’ve always been…walking the hallways of their schools. What needs to change is how the coach recruits and retains them. This 45 minute online course is designed to help the youth, junior high, and high school wrestling coach understand the following principles: • Best practices for motivating student-wrestlers at various ages. • Concepts for keeping wrestling “fun.” • Ideas on how to provide student-wrestlers with constructive feedback. • Recognition of when and how to introduce students at various ages to competition. Link: For more information http://www.nwcaonline.com/NWCAWebSite/coachingdevelopment/recruitment.aspx
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: smokeycabin]
#173820
10/26/10 05:57 PM
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Cokeley
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Is that 39% increase - ??
15-18 plus years old compared to 15 & 16 year olds? If so not exactly apples and apples. You are not that stupid. The proposal to open the division up to High School wrestlers instead of JUST 16U was being challenged as to whether or not it made a meaningful impact. There is nothing to compare any fruit to! The impact was a 39% increase in the number of competitors. That is the point.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173822
10/26/10 06:20 PM
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in it to win it
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In it to win it.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173823
10/26/10 06:25 PM
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shawnbudke
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Will,
I understand what you are saying, however, the numbers you show don't really prove that the numbers increased due to making a high school division not just a 16U division. There is strong evidence that this is true but to really prove it and make it as resounding as you make it sound one would have to analyze the number of kids that were older than the 16U cut off. Then you would know for sure exactly how big of an impact that change had.
Now before you get riled up, I think the trend is correct.....by allowing older kids to wrestle, our numbers increased. But to be technically accurate on your percentage you need to do the analysis stated above.
Bottomline: I don't think it really matters. The number of kids participating increased and that is a good thing. Just leave it at that.
Shawn
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: in it to win it]
#173825
10/26/10 06:36 PM
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Cokeley
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That went out the window when I was accused of making a proposal and running away.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173826
10/26/10 07:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 161
bubbasmom77
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I was told on an earlier post that we do not yet have a viable definition of a novice wrestler and that concerns me as I gave a suggestion very similar to that of Oklahoma and got no response. Novice state would take care of the issues that are arising with the 6 under conflict. If you want to see the perfect definition of a novice wrestler look at Oklahoma.
Mike pirl
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173831
10/26/10 08:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,932
sportsfan02
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[b]I was told on an earlier post that we do not yet have a viable definition of a novice wrestler [/b]and that concerns me as I gave a suggestion very similar to that of Oklahoma and got no response.
And there never will be one that fits all situations. Let each novice tournament make their own definition and leave it at that. If you or I don't like a particular tournament's definition then we should not attend that tournament. Novice state would take care of the issues that are arising with the 6 under conflict. No it won't because then you will REALLY have arguments about what constitutes a novice competitor! If you want to see the perfect definition of a novice wrestler look at Oklahoma.
I've never seen anything about Oklahoma that even approached "perfect" but I suppose there could always be a first. Regardless of how you word the definition there will always be those that disagree, those that don't fit that definition even though they belong, and those that abuse that definition.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: sportsfan02]
#173832
10/26/10 08:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 161
bubbasmom77
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Ok well then how about this suggestion. I believe that we are coddling the kids too much. We have novice tournaments and we have extra brackets at tournaments ( a, b, c ). I think that two novice divisions is crazy. One bracket in open tournaments means less money the club has to put out in awards, more matches for kids and makes the c and d wrestles work harder. Let's stop all the extra brackets and just wrestle if your novice go to novice tournaments if your open go open. Mike Pirl
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173833
10/26/10 08:22 PM
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bubbasmom77
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I still don't think it's too hard to define a novice wrestler and watch it so that people don't cheat the system. Mike Pirl
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173835
10/26/10 08:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 161
bubbasmom77
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Also in case many of you don't know none of this has any direct concern to me or my son. I am just trying to throw out ideas that may help improve the sport here in Kansas. Mike Pirl Don't mean to get under Anyones skin.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173836
10/26/10 08:25 PM
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Cokeley
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There are some wrestlers that will never make it out of the novice ranks. It is not as black and white as it would seem. GA has actually done a tremendous amount of work trying to define and regulate this area. The abusers are those who value the W over the experience and character building. While I agree that confidence is a delicate part of the formula, the coach and parents have the fiduciary responsibility to educate and nurture their young athlete in a constructive way.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173839
10/26/10 08:31 PM
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Cokeley
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2010 2010 - HS 2009 2009 - 16 North 1 569 109 468 70 South 1 632 102 597 98 North 2 557 136 460 70 South 2 454 60 448 49 East 3 418 64 368 41 West 3 460 59 433 48 North 4 428 58 372 56 South 4 469 58 426 34 3987 646 3572 466
In 2010 we saw an increase of 415 wrestlers at the subdistrict tournaments. 180 of the 415 were in the HS division over the previous year's 16U competitors.
I think the HS division offers and opportunity for kids who were not on varsity, who didn't make it to HS state, or who just want to extend their season a few weeks. A large number of the elite level competitors will attend NHSCA Nationals and begin preparing for FS/GR season.
I believe someone stated that changing the 16U to HS was not a successful change. Almost a 39% increase. I don't know about most of you but I would take a 39% increase in my business ANY year! in 2008 there were 474 16U wrestlers at subs. The data to create a more definitive view of just how the population of wrestlers was comprised is not readily available. It is a simple assumption when we had a trend of about 470 for two years and then we get a jump to 646 in the year that we allow older wrestlers to compete... I wish there was more historic information available but I don't have it. I think it would be quite a reach to say that suddenly 100 more 16U wrestlers wanted to go to subs in 2010. Further, when you look at the card numbers that population doesn't change by 39% so it is very logical to conclude that the change to the age group led to immediate growth.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173840
10/26/10 08:33 PM
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bubbasmom77
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This is just a question that I was asked one time and did not know how to respond except with if he loves it let him continue and support him.
Is there a time when you should tell a kid that this just is not the sport for them and maybe they should move on.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: bubbasmom77]
#173845
10/26/10 08:49 PM
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Cokeley
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This is just a question that I was asked one time and did not know how to respond except with if he loves it let him continue and support him.
Is there a time when you should tell a kid that this just is not the sport for them and maybe they should move on. I guess if the competitor is not concerned with the results but only desires the competition and experience then no. If they continue to pursue competition it must be providing some fullfillment to them. I think only the kid should answer that question. That being said there may be some economic impact and a choice would have to be made.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173846
10/26/10 08:55 PM
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smokeycabin
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This year’s proposal is the first step in a set of proposals to come - to make 6, 8, & 10 and under a separate state tournament from the 12, 14 & HS division. That could mean 2 sub districts 2 districts, 2 state tournaments and 2 sets of seeding meetings - now that will simplify renting facilities and getting volunteers for both state championship series. I’ll bet it is more cost effective this way and will reduce travel for the coaching staffs and volunteers – NOT The idea/proposal - is let’s do it now and we will figure out how to do it later. If that is the type of CHANGE we are voting for – I hope everyone has a few more open weekends and can round up tons of volunteers.
LAST TIME I CHECKED there are only 2 days in a weekend. So in February we will have subdistricts, districts and state for 6, 8, & 10 and then at another location there will bee 12 & 14 open tournaments going on somewhere - I guess this all happens on Saturdays. So in the month of February if you have a 10 and 12 year old they will wrestle possibly at different locations. I am sure clubs will be chomping at the bit to host a 12 & 14 only tournament on the same day as subdistrict district and state for 6, 8, & 10's. Let alone try to get refs and volunteers. Coaches from clubs will be split up also to cover tournaments in 2 locations. Sundays we should be OK for novice in February. But everyone will be stretched thin on Saturdays - unless we start wrestling on Fridays in February for 3 straight weeks.
Last edited by smokeycabin; 10/26/10 11:59 PM.
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: smokeycabin]
#173857
10/27/10 12:51 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Cokeley
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This year’s proposal is the first step in a set of proposals to come - to make 6, 8, & 10 and under a separate state tournament from the 12, 14 & HS division. That could mean 2 sub districts 2 districts, 2 state tournaments and 2 sets of seeding meetings - now that will simplify renting facilities and getting volunteers for both state championship series. I’ll bet it is more cost effective this way and will reduce travel for the coaching staffs and volunteers – NOT The idea/proposal - is let’s do it now and we will figure out how to do it later. If that is the type of CHANGE we are voting for – I hope everyone has a few more open weekends and can round up tons of volunteers.
LAST TIME I CHECKED there are only 2 days in a weekend. So in February we will have subdistricts, districts and state for 6, 8, & 10 and then at another location there will bee 12 & 14 open tournaments going on somewhere - I guess this all happens on Saturdays. So in the month of February if you have a 10 and 12 year old they will wrestle possibly at different locations. I am sure clubs will be chomping at the bit to host a 12 & 14 only tournament on the same day as subdistrict district and state for 6, 8, & 10's. Let alone try to get refs and volunteers. Coaches from clubs will be split up also to cover tournaments in 2 locations. Sundays we should be OK for novice in February. But everyone will be stretched thin on Saturdays - unless we start wrestling on Fridays in February for 3 straight weeks.
The only thing that surprises me about you Sean is that you are able to type with that straightjacket on... How do you do that???
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
[Re: Cokeley]
#173858
10/27/10 01:08 AM
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Beeson
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I think having the 6, 8, and 10 at one state tourney and 12, 14 and High School at another would be GREAT. Give the little guys something to shoot for. The tournament could rotate around the state with 2 districts getting a state tourney one year and the other two getting it the next. Sorry off subject.
I don't see the downside to voting the 6U state tourney in. Vote YES for 6U State!!!!
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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