Post your choice or choices for most ridiculous rule/regulation/policy in the KSHSAA handbook.

FALL ATHLETIC BUFFER WEEK
Art. 1: There shall be no athletic practice, off-season conditioning,
informal basketball shooting, working out
on wrestling mats, etc., in school-owned facilities
during the Fall Athletic Buffer Week, commencing on
Monday of Standardized Calendar Week (SCW) #19,
through Sunday, SCW #20. Athletic activities of this
nature may not be held under the supervision of a
school staff member in non-school facilities. This means
a moratorium on all school-sponsored athletic activities
during this week.
Gymnasiums shall not be open to the students during
the Fall Athletic Buffer Week for the purpose of shooting
baskets, working out with weights, etc., outside
of school hours. Noon hour and physical education
classes are considered part of the school day.
The Fall Athletic Buffer Week does not eliminate football
practice for those senior high schools who qualify for
football play-offs until such time their football season is
over. The same applies to the gymnastics program.
EXCEPTION: Players, no more than three boys and
three girls from each participating school’s basketball
team, will be allowed to participate in clinics designed
to promote and improve basketball officiating prior to
SCW #20. The following restrictions will apply:
a. The clinic must be approved by the Kansas State
High School Activities Association
b. Students may participate in only one such clinic per
year.

What is wrong with a mandatory break for the athletes?

Ahhhh, you know wrestling season is upon us when the leaves have changed and fallen, there is a crisp bite to the morning air, the smell of mildewed football gear gives way to hot damp wrestling rooms and scents of disinfectant, rumors of coach ejections at national tournaments circulate, and last but not least Cokeley starts his annual KSHSAA rant.

So many things to be thankful for....

Family...Freedom...and Fueds between Cokeley vs Sportsfan2.

I am rooting for Cokeley and agree that the Fall Sport buffer is an example of a nanny state that wants to decide what individuals can and should be able to decide on their own.

This may be the last year you can have marshmellows on the sweetpotatoes at Thanksgiving dinner. Nanny state may outlaw them.

We should push kids who want to voluntarily lift weights, shoot hoops, drill moves or use any of the MILLIONS of dollars of capital assets OUR tax dollars have purchased out onto the streets for a week. The rule should be that NO MANDATORY practices, workouts, or organized sessions are permitted.

It is also not fair that schools who have football teams who advanced in the playoffs get to continue having practices and use all of the equipment but those who did not advance cannot. How does that make sense? If you are good you can get better but if you are not good enough to make the playoffs then you cannot improve????

The "Dead Week" is ridiculous. I stand by my claim and I believe I backed it up. Donkey Wrestler, back up the dead week, how does it make sense?? Focus on the words voluntary and mandatory.

Heck Sport0, it doesn't have to be a change of season for me to beat up on KSHSAA, I have made it my full time job. As far as the rumors go, just ask. Bobby Cox will go down as one of the greatest major league baseball managers in history. Why? Because he is a passionate advocate of his athletes and of the integrity of the game. What else will he leave baseball with? He has been ejected more than any other manager in baseball history. Thank God for those willing enough to fight hard enough and passionately enough to get the attention of others! You will not embarass or shame me Sport0. You have to get involved to get ejected! I haven't even SEEN you at a national tournament in the recent past and I do know who you are. If you don't care enough to fight for what is right then why are you involved?

I think the most ridiculous is the 5 match a day limit rule..

5 match rule. The most ridiculous.

I have to agree with the 5 match limit. This rule prevents wrestlers from demonstrating their intestinal fortitude, hard conditioning work, and many times allows a wrestler to win a medal due to a mandatory forfeit or coin toss? Worst rule ever. Although, I do agree with Will's argument about the week off should simply enforce no MANDATORY practices.

There is not much KSHSAA can do about the 5 match limit rule is there? I think the travel restriction rule is probably the dumbest. Why would we restrict our kids from seeing better competition? It would be great to see some Kansas kids go to tournaments like the cheesehead, the clash, Walsh Ironman, or beast of the east.

I just think a mandatory one week break is not necessarily a bad thing. Aside from the millions of tax dollars that must sit idle for a week.

It's a one week break before many of our wrestling athletes begin a season that is not only long and grueling but also very intense. It can carry on now including freestyle & greco well into May... why not give them a break before the adventure begins?

Aside from that, how much idle throughout the year do our facilities sit idle?

If a person cannot use the public facilities to lift weights, etc. what prevents them from going for a run around town, lifting weights at a local gym, etc.?

It really never bothered me during high school to have a week off, and I guess it doesn't now, but to each their own.

It really wouldn't bother you if there wasn't a dead week either? Why should athletes have to seek other facilities to maintain their workout routine when we have facilities readily available? KSHSAA mandates time off for Christmas too. The rule was most likely put in place because coaches were MANDATING workouts. Why not just say no MANDATORY workouts. If students, some who are not even out for a winter sport, VOLUNTARILY want to use the facilities then let them. KSHSAA should not be empowered to TELL us, the taxpayers, that we cannot use our facilities because they think it is for the best. It, to me, is a clear abuse of power or more likely an easy way out. Who would want to police that no MANDATORY workouts were happening? The football coaches have already begun abusing their ability to have more contact by saying "if you don't make the summer camps, workouts, and other sessions you won't get to play". That needs to be stopped but KSHSAA doesn't want to police their regulations. Change takes effort. Gary and company don't really want to put forth any positive effort.

5 match rule... KSHSAA had a chance to do the right thing.

This time Greg Mann was trying to be the MAN but was slapped down by his own brethren. High 5 to Greg for standing up against the machine.

WRESTLING – FIFTH PLACE TIEBREAKER
Superintendent Greg Mann of Norton appeared before the Executive
Board to propose adoption of a policy allowing Kansas
wrestlers in Kansas tournaments, involved in a tie for fifth
place, who have wrestled their daily maximum of five matches
as specified in NFHS rule 1-2-2, be permitted to wrestle an
additional match to break the tie. The proposal read:
“In any one day tournament where a sixth match is necessary
to determine an individual placing, the additional
match shall be allowed if both wrestlers represent KSHSAA
schools. If both wrestlers do not represent KSHSAA
schools, the individual placing shall be determined using
criterion.”
Following extensive discussion, there was no action taken to
adopt the proposal. It was noted the Executive Board adopted
a progression of eight criteria to use in breaking ties in these
situations, in September 2009. The criteria were developed
with input from the KSHSAA wrestling weight management
committee, and were published in the 2009-10 KSHSAA Wrestling
Manual to ensure their availability to all member schools.


Don't get sick reading the tie breaker rules:

2.0 5th Match Limit - Tie Breaking Procedure

The following critieria would only be used if both of the wrestlers were in a situation that their match would be the sixth (6th) match for both wrestlers that day. If one of the wrestlers had only four matches under NFHS rules (matches and/or forfeits) and their opponent had five matches (matches and/or forfeits), then the match woudl be awarded to the wrestler with only four matches.

Tie Breaking Criteria - the critieria would be applied in the sequence listed to determine which wrestler would be awarded the high place:

1) If the two wrestlers had wrestled each oterh in that day's competition the results of that match would determine the awarding of places.
2) If the two wrestlers had wrestled in that day a common opponent, the results of those matches would determine the awarding of places. Ex. A and B both have had five matches in the tournamente. A and B both wrestled C in that day's competition. C defeated A, B defeated C. B would be awarded the higher place.
3) If one of the two wrestlers had been penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct during that day's competition, the other wreslter would be awarded the higher place.
4) The wrestler having received the fewest penalty points during the day's competition shall be awarded the higher place.
5) The wrestler having accumulated the greatest number of falls during the day's competition shall be awarded the higher place.
6) The wrestler having accumulated the greatest number of tech falls during the day's competition shall be awarded the higher place.
7) The wrestler having accumulated the greatest number of points during the day's competition shall be awarded the higher place.
8) In the event that the criteria does not determine which wrestler is awarded the match, both wrestlers will be awarded the same place and team points will be divided equally between the two wrestlers.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173827 - October 26, 2010 03:15 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: Cokeley]
Chief Renegade
Member

Registered: November 20, 2003
Posts: 5256
Loc: Matside with clipboard If we have no vote on the national level due to our breaking of the NFHS rules on weight, why are we so worried about being compliant to the arcane rule of limiting matches to five in a day?

I heard that Gary Musselman, the Executive Director, had told others that the passing of this rule was very likely. He subsequently led the charge to quash the proposal, using a scare tactic of possible lawsuits. Is this actually what happened?
_________________________
Eric Johnson

www.scienceprovesit.com

Acts 4:12




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#173828 - October 26, 2010 03:29 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: Chief Renegade]
back in the day
Member

Registered: December 15, 2008
Posts: 255
It will take longer to figure out who should or shouldn't place than it would have to wrestle the match.
_________________________
The older I get the better I was!

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#173829 - October 26, 2010 03:33 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: back in the day]
Enetophobic
Member

Registered: June 08, 2010
Posts: 207
Loc: Outside of Bauhmolder, Germany... This rule has been a problem for a long long time in Kansas. I would say over 10 years as I remember hearing and seeing the 6th match humdrum. Who actually does those tiebreakers above? I have heard coaches on this forum before mention the old disc toss was used as a tiebreaker? If the KSHSAA is so worried about a full match being wrestled, then how about the 6th match will be started as a Sudden Death first takedown wins scenario. If still tied go into the 30/30 and repeat.
_________________________
Enlighten Me!

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#173837 - October 26, 2010 04:25 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: Enetophobic]
GregMann
Member

Registered: May 30, 2003
Posts: 590 Clarification on the tie-breaker:

Two years ago a sixth match proposal very similar to the one above was discussed. The understanding at that time was that no way would a sixth match proposal receive the blessing and recommendation of KSHSAA executive staff. Therefore, in the absence of being allowed to wrestle a sixth match, it was requested that a uniform system of tie breakers be developed so as to allow for uniformity across the state in how ties were being handled.

The #1 preference was and still is settling it on the mat.

All I will say about the proposal made to the Executive Board is I had reason to believe it would receive a favorable recommendation from KSHSAA executive staff, but it did not.

Chief, in answer to your question: Kansas has been out of compliance in regards to procedural rules, but has always been in compliance in regards to competition rules. Allowing a sixth match is being out of compliance in regards to competition, a bigger "no-no." However, there are now ten states out-of-compliance with NFS Rules, most all having to do with the NFS weight management and descent plans. So, is Kansas out of step or a trend setter?
_________________________
Greg Mann
Norton

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#173843 - October 26, 2010 04:38 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: GregMann]
Cokeley
Member

Registered: September 28, 2001
Posts: 2409
Loc: DeSoto, KS Mr. Cokeley

The proposed language was:

“In any one day tournament where a sixth match is necessary to determine an individual placing, the additional match shall be allowed if both wrestlers represent KSHSAA schools. If both wrestlers do not represent KSHSAA schools, the individual placing shall be determined using criterion.”

Following the introduction of the item, Mr. Greg Mann appeared to explain some of the history and the rationale for the proposal. In addition, Mr. Bob Gonzales spoke to the issues and the rational for the proposal. Mr. Mann was present during most of the discussion and volunteered answers to some of the questions raised. He had another meeting and was unable to attend during the last part of the discussion. Mr. Gonzales as a member of the Executive Board was present during the entire discussion.

Extensive discussion among the members of the Executive Board followed the presentation of the proposal. That discussion centered primarily on the fact that other sports do have competition limits. Among the items mentioned were cross country (length of races), track and field (length of races at the MS/JH level and event limits at the HS level), basketball (quarters in a day), etc. The committee also discussed some of the rationale for deviating from the NFHS rules in wrestling re: weigh-ins and weight-loss procedures. My observation was that the general consensus among the Board members were that in the sport of wrestling, the deviations the KSHSAA has permitted in these two areas (weigh-in’s and weight-loss plan) were those proposed by member schools and they did not deviate from the actual competition limits set by NFHS rules. Board members also expressed some concerns that deviation from competition rules (such as the event limit in a day) held the potential for litigation against a member school should a wrestler become injured while participating in a 6th match (which was in excess of the NFHS rule). The board also shared concerns that any change in the event limit in a day would open the door for subsequent requests in other sports. The board members also discussed the criteria which the previous board had adopted as a process to break ties in situations in which wrestlers would have to wrestle a 6th match in a day to determine placings.

Following the discussion, no motion was made to either adopt the proposed change nor deny the change. Absent any motion, there was no recorded vote on the proposal.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:51 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: 6th Wrestling Match

Mr. Bowden,

I would like to see a copy of the proposal, the minutes from the discussion, and the votes as cast by the members of the Executive Board. Surely this information is readily available to the public? This rule change was supported by an overwhelming majority of coaches. It made great economic sense for the schools and is NOT a safety issue when you consider how long these athletes practice without a break, how many minutes we allow football and basketball players to compete, and USA Wrestling allows the top high school wrestlers to wrestle in as many as 10 matches a day. The only way this was voted down is if someone influenced the members with some sort of scare tactic. How can it be that Kansas knows what is better from a weight loss perspective but not from a matches per day perspective? The NFHS rule is outdated and needs to modified! Why shouldn’t our state lead that charge? KSHSAA should be supportive of changes and proposals that advance and improve our extracurricular activities. I thought that your organization was supposed to support what the members promote?

Will Cokeley



From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 4:41 PM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: 6th Wrestling Match

There was a proposal presented to the KSHSAA Executive Board but the board voted to not adopt any change to the NFHS rule on the number of matches a wrestler could participate in during a day.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 3:50 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: 6th Wrestling Match

Mr. Bowden,

Is there a report from the recent meeting where the 6th wrestling match allowed in one day of competition was discussed and eventually voted down? I have heard several rumors and I would like to get the facts before going public with the vote.

Thanks!

Will Cokeley
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173844 - October 26, 2010 04:39 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: GregMann]
Cokeley
Member

Registered: September 28, 2001
Posts: 2409
Loc: DeSoto, KS Mr. Cokeley

The proposed language was:

“In any one day tournament where a sixth match is necessary to determine an individual placing, the additional match shall be allowed if both wrestlers represent KSHSAA schools. If both wrestlers do not represent KSHSAA schools, the individual placing shall be determined using criterion.”

Following the introduction of the item, Mr. Greg Mann appeared to explain some of the history and the rationale for the proposal. In addition, Mr. Bob Gonzales spoke to the issues and the rational for the proposal. Mr. Mann was present during most of the discussion and volunteered answers to some of the questions raised. He had another meeting and was unable to attend during the last part of the discussion. Mr. Gonzales as a member of the Executive Board was present during the entire discussion.

Extensive discussion among the members of the Executive Board followed the presentation of the proposal. That discussion centered primarily on the fact that other sports do have competition limits. Among the items mentioned were cross country (length of races), track and field (length of races at the MS/JH level and event limits at the HS level), basketball (quarters in a day), etc. The committee also discussed some of the rationale for deviating from the NFHS rules in wrestling re: weigh-ins and weight-loss procedures. My observation was that the general consensus among the Board members were that in the sport of wrestling, the deviations the KSHSAA has permitted in these two areas (weigh-in’s and weight-loss plan) were those proposed by member schools and they did not deviate from the actual competition limits set by NFHS rules. Board members also expressed some concerns that deviation from competition rules (such as the event limit in a day) held the potential for litigation against a member school should a wrestler become injured while participating in a 6th match (which was in excess of the NFHS rule). The board also shared concerns that any change in the event limit in a day would open the door for subsequent requests in other sports. The board members also discussed the criteria which the previous board had adopted as a process to break ties in situations in which wrestlers would have to wrestle a 6th match in a day to determine placings.

Following the discussion, no motion was made to either adopt the proposed change nor deny the change. Absent any motion, there was no recorded vote on the proposal.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:51 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: RE: 6th Wrestling Match

Mr. Bowden,

I would like to see a copy of the proposal, the minutes from the discussion, and the votes as cast by the members of the Executive Board. Surely this information is readily available to the public? This rule change was supported by an overwhelming majority of coaches. It made great economic sense for the schools and is NOT a safety issue when you consider how long these athletes practice without a break, how many minutes we allow football and basketball players to compete, and USA Wrestling allows the top high school wrestlers to wrestle in as many as 10 matches a day. The only way this was voted down is if someone influenced the members with some sort of scare tactic. How can it be that Kansas knows what is better from a weight loss perspective but not from a matches per day perspective? The NFHS rule is outdated and needs to modified! Why shouldn’t our state lead that charge? KSHSAA should be supportive of changes and proposals that advance and improve our extracurricular activities. I thought that your organization was supposed to support what the members promote?

Will Cokeley



From: Rick Bowden [mailto:RBowden@kshsaa.org]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 4:41 PM
To: William Cokeley
Subject: RE: 6th Wrestling Match

There was a proposal presented to the KSHSAA Executive Board but the board voted to not adopt any change to the NFHS rule on the number of matches a wrestler could participate in during a day.

Rick Bowden

From: William Cokeley [mailto:WCokeley@Silgancontainers.com]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 3:50 PM
To: Rick Bowden
Subject: 6th Wrestling Match

Mr. Bowden,

Is there a report from the recent meeting where the 6th wrestling match allowed in one day of competition was discussed and eventually voted down? I have heard several rumors and I would like to get the facts before going public with the vote.

Thanks!

Will Cokeley
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173850 - October 26, 2010 06:55 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: Cokeley]
ReDPloyd
Member

Registered: January 02, 2008
Posts: 558 If they averaged the number of minutes a wrestler competes for five matches in a day, I doubt it would be much over 24-25, at the most. Now, I do realize that these are incredibly exhausting minutes, but I doubt one more match would be detrimental to either athlete.
_________________________
Lee Girard

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#173851 - October 26, 2010 07:08 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: ReDPloyd]
ReDPloyd
Member

Registered: January 02, 2008
Posts: 558 I thought about it again, I doubt the average would be much over 21-22 minutes on the mat for five matches.
_________________________
Lee Girard

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#173855 - October 26, 2010 08:03 PM Re: KSHSAA does it to us again....No 6th match [Re: ReDPloyd]
John Johnson
Member

Registered: February 26, 2006
Posts: 177
Loc: Easton My son wrestled 6 matches in a day at Fargo. USA Wrestling isn't concerned about 'lawsuits'. As such, I would say the law suit issue isn't why they voted no. If they were really scared of law suits they would be very concerned about the new studies coming out about concussions and football. (Not trying to start a discussion on this, just making a point.) Since they claim the coaches and administrators rule KSHSAA, I would assume the coaches didn't really support it. Or, is the executive staff out of touch w/ the coaches??? What does it take to remove the executive staff of KSHSAA?? At a time when government salaries are under review, they appear to be 'below the radar'. Given he rules in place, we will just continue to work to peak in the summer.

Ok maybe because I am an outsider I don't understand the beef with this, here is why...I believe it is 500 miles 1 way from any border of Kansas to wrestle, which gives you a huge area to span. Some teams take advantage and go into other states and find competitions, but few invite other states in. Add in the fact the 0 teams went to Toshiba, Lone Star Duals, Dvorak, or The Clash (which maybe slightly out of the range by 20-30 miles, but could possibly be petitioned for and I ask...why is this a problem? I believe you can see tons of competition if you just go a few hundred miles into the neighboring states, especially if you are a border team. Look at Ulysses and Goodland that draw teams from Colorado. Just recently the east half of the state which seems to complain the most about rules, has had teams come into Sunflower turf.

I think Kansas needs to host a combined effort type of tournament to bring in out of state teams. I have seen on the net where teams from one coast have flown out to the opposite coast to see "competition". Maybe have a tournament designed to let teams meet in the middle and wrestle some duals on a Friday if they want, and then additionaly compete in a bracketed or pool format on Saturday.

If anything maybe allow wrestlers to freely compete in events like Oklahoma Open which is now just a high school tournament, without having to wait to join your team, but have it limited to a point system as well, so if you want to compete before your team's 1st competition you need it signed off by your high school coach, and you can't exceed more then 2 tournaments before that competition date.

Well it is obvious that this rule is absurd. The kids who want to better themselves deserve treats. "Dead Week" takes the treat of advancing their personal skills and places it on the shelf out of reach.