that is why you go live at practice, to work on those moves that you need some work on. when you go to tournaments i feel like you should always wrestle for MOW whether they give the award or not. especially if you wrestle against a lesser opponent. that just gives you a time advantage towards the MOW. no need to try to run off any lesser wrestlers as we need all the kids in the sport that we can get.

I can also give this perspective from a kids point of view. My oldest son, now in middle school was told by coach that he wanted him to tech someone the next day. My son explained to him, "I can't do that coach. I didn't like it done to me, I don't feel as if I should do it to someone else." Coach had enough respect for the reasoning that he didn't ask it of him again. However, trackwrestling rewards tech falls and majors more than they do pins. My son's record, just on trackwrestling, with 21 wins(19 by pin) and 12 losses gets a pretty horrible percentage compared to others with lesser win percentage just due to tech falls is my guess.

Isn't that why they have novice tournaments on Sundays? What about Ortiz's head butt? Was that sportsmanlike?

In the USA we now teach our kids to call 911 for every thing.In school we teach them they can not fight back.If they do fight back the school kicks them out for fighting.All the schools now push the NO BULLY thing over and over.
I think there is some thing roung there.You grab my wife I will not call 911[till it is done].I will teach my kids the same. You attack me I will defend wife,kids and myself [in turn atack you] We are teaching our kids to rely on some one else for help all the time.Life is not fair nor will it ever be.If some kid attacks my son I hope he will defend himself[attack back].I know I will spend every dim I have to let the school know here in the USA we can defend our self.
Now all of that said. My son is the nice kid.Every time he has made a piont is was becouse the oponet he was facing tryed to hurt him.We have been on the reciving end of some take downs over and over.I THANKED EVERY KID THAT DID THIS TO THE BOY. Life is hard. This is one of the only sports that if kids want,and work for it.They will get better and will not get made fun of.

Well said!!!!!

2 issues: 1) because I support COMPETITIVE sports I support bullying??? 2)trackwrestling does reward pins over techs - check the significant wins for percentage placement.
I will say it now, we will be at Salina and Maize back to back weeks and any wrestler who wants to do takedowns and let us back up repeatedly, thank you in advance. I understand the importance of Takedowns. After all one can not become a takedown machine without working and getting mat time on takedowns. We have been on both sides of this spectrum, and I have no issue with takedowns. The score is 2 takedowns to 1 escape. I suppose if there was a large outcry they would award 2 points for escapes and 1 for takedowns, but for now the emphasis would appear to be on takedowns. Hence, that is what I would focus on. The more mat time (in practice or a match) given to neutral position is more time to improve in that area and is appreciated.

Mike Chandler
Shawnee Mission,KS

ok enough about take downs and letting up, my question was really if the kid is in a pinning position can he then jump off the kid or is he supposed to pin him? That's all I really wanted to know. And MC Ortiz never should have done what he done and he got taken a point away, while Mayweather never should have done what he done but he got the belt and a crap load of money plus a win. But my question was is that the way a champion as good as Mayweather should win a fight???

It's unsportsmanlike conduct to let a kid straight off his back. There is some judgement involved as was the kid struggling and the offensive wrestler in a predicament (ie. reversal if he doesn't get off etc.) to just getting off of him.

I have to admit I got called for this once in High School because I didn't know what the rules were about it, after that I never did it again. I can see now being on the other side of the coin how it can be taken as unsportsmanlike.

Now onto the takedown vs. escape etc. debate. What's the difference if a kid takes another kid down and lets him up, down, up, down, up etc. and a kid who just cheap tilts another kid to a tech fall? Should he not turn the kid because he can't defend it?

Great point Bronco... there is no difference. It is accumulating points (the object if a pin is not obtained). You can wrestle out the length of a match for 1)working moves 2) warming up for a fierce match next round 3) loosening up tight/strained muscles from a previous match/practice. A pin can be achieved and points can also. Accumulating points is not always taunting.
Now, it is illegal to let a wrestler up directly off his back. However, much like in our practices (where niether kid benefits from staying in 1 pinning combo for the entire 30 sec-2min of live wrestling scramble) once back points have been obtained and a pin is inevitable you can "roll your opponent through" allowing him to belly down prior to cutting him to his feet. We often do this to keep the flow of wrestling going through live scrambles. The same can be applied to a match.

Thanks Bronco, that is what I thought and yes the kid let him straight off his back at least 3 times. That is what I ment by taunting when I first posted this topic...

Now onto the takedown vs. escape etc. debate. What's the difference if a kid takes another kid down and lets him up, down, up, down, up etc. and a kid who just cheap tilts another kid to a tech fall? Should he not turn the kid because he can't defend it?[/quote]

Some of it is just the sport...its always been allowed to do the takedown-release. And the case book OKs that technique. Maybe someday they'll revisit that technique.

Actually, you probably can't use a cheap tilt to run up points...each "pinning situation" results in only one set of NF points, and unless you release the arm and the kid can belly out and defend himself you should only earn one set....this gets called incorrectly quite often, and even at HS state some officials will forget the rule...you aren't suppose to be able to use the same pinning situation for multiple NFs.

I know that I as an official have and will stop a kid from tech falling a kid with just the takedown escape game if he absolutely cannot defend himself and the offensive guy is doing it to embarrass the kid, I will tell the offensive wrestler to keep it on the mat after allowing him to get sufficient work on his feet in my opinion.

At least with the turns, he is working towards an imminent fall, a takedown is nowhere near that. This is just my own opinion and not worth anymore than the paper it's typed on

Some of it is just the sport...its always been allowed to do the takedown-release. And the case book OKs that technique. Maybe someday they'll revisit that technique.

Actually, you probably can't use a cheap tilt to run up points...each "pinning situation" results in only one set of NF points, and unless you release the arm and the kid can belly out and defend himself you should only earn one set....this gets called incorrectly quite often, and even at HS state some officials will forget the rule...you aren't suppose to be able to use the same pinning situation for multiple NFs.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you about breaking the hold and the defensive wrestler being allowed to get out of "eminent danger" before the NF points are allowed.

The takedown escape game can be construed as unsportsmanlike if done as a way of demeaning the opponent. Usually it's not the case but I have seen it that way and where my answer above comes from.

And if I'm needing to weigh in on the first night of a two day tourney, I'm probably not wanting to wrestle for 15 seconds, I'll want to get some work in. Am I supposed to take the guy down, and ride him the rest of the period, and ride him the second period, and get an escap in the third, so I only win 3-0, so his feelings aren't hurt?

Like most things in life, and like someone on this thread said, I can't define it, but I know when it isn't right............Use common sense.

I never understood the insult of someone wrestling the match out. To me the lowest form of losing is getting pinned. Beat me however you can, but I would be sure I wasn't getting pinned. You have a chance and are still in the match regardless of the score until you are pinned.
Matt Infranca whooped me. Tech falled me, but I did not give up the pin. I may have given 5 points to the other team, but I also saved my team 1 point. There is a reason why pins are worth the most team points. I can not grasp why anyone would request to get pinned over wrestling the match out.

I was waiting for this thread to pop up. I was the coach of the kid that got taken down and let up. This was the kid’s first match and has been with the club for a month. The tournament was posted that the novice "D" wrestlers would be put into brackets of the same category. There were only two kids that signed up for this weight class and they got put together. This is not a problem, I understand that. What upset me was the fact that this kid got taken down and taken to his back and the other kid just jumped off of him and stud there waiting for the kid to stand up just to be taken down again. This went on for 2 and 1/2 periods. By the middle of the third period the looked at me with a look like "what am I supposed to do?" I guess it’s my fault for not preparing him for a beating like this. I understand going a period getting a good warm up match in then working in the second to end it. But Not 2 and 1/2 periods of the same beating over and over. The score was like 22-8. It just didn't sit well with me. I know kids go to tournaments to get matches and mat time but there is a point that it becomes excessive. This was the first time I have ever had a match that was this excessive. The other coach and I discussed it after the match and all is good now. I guess in the future the kid will be ready for a match like this but I really don’t want to lose a kid in the first month he has been wrestling.

The question is whether what is happening meets the definition of taunting. It's like sarcasm...its not just the words used, its how they are said, the voice, the tone, the inflection, and in what context. The same words can be used, but they can be interpreted in two entirely different ways. In the abstract, its hard to define everything that can be demeaning. And sure, maybe losing is always demeaning to some extent, but you can win without being a jerk...

Very well said.

In Answer to your question. The Ref or wrestler Didn't do anything wrong. It happens, its unfortunate for the wrestler being handled. Mentally he'll bounce back I'm sure. My sons done it and at one point in his career had it done to him more than once.

Everyone's got great points and should add that now Jonny's guilty of it and its mostly my fault. At any local tournament where we go and give no concern to match outcomes, I just want him to get mat time he's not aloud to pin. My rule not his. Not because I want him to showboat just try different moves and work on things its really just practice and have fun. I should also add onetime he had a novice kid Headlock the heck out of him and pin him which was pretty funny. So it can come back to bite ya LOL

So, is it OK or Not?

In wrestling, the sport requires that you work for a fall, its not an option not to. That's in the rules, its stalling not to work for a fall, and its taunting and unsportsmanlike to put your opponent into criteria and then let him out of criteria. That's the starting point.TD-escapes, by rule, is treated differently. iIf coaches, dads, kids, or officials want to do something different, if they want to modify the rules, and the sport, to suit themselves and satisfy their own goals and needs, so be it. What I would suggest, though, if we want to foster and encourage wrestling as a sport, is that the adults teach the kids about sportsmanship and how you treat your opponent. You don't do things on that mat that will humiliate the other wrestler. yes, you will get kids that can't wrestle well, they are going to lose. In my opinion, just like you don't call them "fish," "loser," "crybaby" etc. in words, you don't do the same thing by using them as your training dummy in front of a crowd of friends, family and fans.For the religious, its the "golden rule."